....but you knew that already.`

Well - phase 1a of the ELLX opens tomorrow - that's through running
south of New Cross Gate, all stations to West Croydon and Crystal
Palace. The, er, extension of the extension from Dalston Jn on to
Highbury & Islington comes a bit later... and the further extension
from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction (via Peckham etc) comes later
still.

Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans,
in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly
become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed,
half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment
into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route
can realise some of its until now unexploited potential.

Thameslink Mark II it might not be but I suggest that would be to miss
the point - it's a new local link for London, linking localities in
the south east and east of London along with the eastern fringe of the
City, and linking much more through new interchange opportunities, at
Canada Water, at Whitechapel, at New Cross NX Gate (and stations south
thereof), at Dalston (and in a year at High & I), and with local buses
all over the shop.

Kudos to the planners for, well, having the vision to plan it, and
dare I say kudos to the newt king for actually making that vision
happen. It's not a Grand Projet, but is perhaps all the more audacious
for that.

More info (from TfL):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/15360.aspx

Limited-ish number of free tickets available for travel on the ELL
today (Sunday 23 May) - see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/15514.aspx

On May 22, 4:38*pm, Mizter T wrote:
...but you knew that already.`

Well - phase 1a of the ELLX opens tomorrow - that's through running
south of New Cross Gate, all stations to West Croydon and Crystal
Palace. The, er, extension of the extension from Dalston Jn on to
Highbury & Islington comes a bit later... and the further extension
from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction (via Peckham etc) comes later
still.

Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans,
in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly
become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed,
half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment
into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route
can realise some of its until now unexploited potential.

Thameslink Mark II it might not be but I suggest that would be to miss
the point - it's a new local link for London, linking localities in
the south east and east of London along with the eastern fringe of the
City, and linking much more through new interchange opportunities, at
Canada Water, at Whitechapel, at New Cross NX Gate (and stations south
thereof), at Dalston (and in a year at High & I), and with local buses
all over the shop.

Kudos to the planners for, well, having the vision to plan it, and
dare I say kudos to the newt king for actually making that vision
happen. It's not a Grand Projet, but is perhaps all the more audacious
for that.

More info (from TfL):http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/15360.aspx

Limited-ish number of free tickets available for travel on the ELL
today (Sunday 23 May) - see:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/15514.aspx

Thank you for posting. I agree with every word you say. When this
idea was first proposed I questioned why both the NLL and ELL could
not be routed into Liverpool Street. This would have given access to
the city from a number of orbital locations. However, since Liverpool
Street lacks sufficient capacity, this is the next best alternative.

When folks posted the first pictures of the new stations, on Flickr
etc., I thought that they looked cold and utilitarian. But, as the
Overground roundels and other signage has been added the buildings
have taken on the familiar TfL look. Given time I think the stations
will become part of the landscape.

Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. The
Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. In many ways
the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. I hope in
time we will see further development. I look forward to visiting
London and checking out the new system for myself.

I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. It
actually came at 0649.

The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first
trip.

I had planned to change at Surrey Quays so I could go back to Crystal
Palace but I missed the connection due to the delay so I went to
Whitechapel instead. I then picked up a free ticket at Whitechapel
ticket office. It came in an Overground branded wallet with a
commemorative ticket on the right and a regular Zones 1 to 6 Day
Travelcard on the left. So the free ticket isn't just for the East
London Line!

As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming
that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself
later...

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 May 2010 23:50:57 -0700 (PDT), Richard Adamfi
wrote:

I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. It
actually came at 0649.

Well I was at Dalston at about 0635 but that's just how the buses worked
out to get me there before 0656.

The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first
trip.

Unfortunately the station did not open until 0707 when a driver came up
from his train to find the staff. The first train therefore had been and
gone. He released the door from the inside. The station staff were
outside with the passengers waiting for a key to turn up. The platform
displays were showing the wrong train on the wrong platform for some
reason. Needless to say there was no opportunity for the staff to hand
out the freebies as they'd only just made it into the station.

All I can say is "not very good". Thankfully there was only a handful
of people around that early in the day at Dalston.

They didn't preview at this sort of time last weekend then? A shame because
one of the major selling points of LO is the staffed stations - perhaps they
could allow a few more individuals their own keys...

... The passenger
info system there got "its knickers in a twist" about what train was
going from what platform but eventually it sorted itself out. It
initially thought the ELLX was going from the bay platform which is
something of a physical impossibility!

AIUI the ELL trains will normally run through P4 to the new reversing
siding, then return through P2, but I don't think there is any physical
reason why P1 couldn't be used if needed?

There was one chap trying to get to Upton Park so I gave him my ELL
timetable leaflet as that has the new tube map in it. He was trying to
fathom where he was going from what is now an out of date London
Connections map. Just goes to show that some journeys have suddenly got
easier and cheaper.

What I noticed, in relation to route finding, is that they have gone much
further than expected with the platform line diagrams. A recent iteration
of the LO signs standard showed an 'orange' route diagram, with text at the
bottom along the lines of 'National Rail - services to XYZ'.

What I noticed at Forest Hill southbound yesterday though was a fairly
complete diagram of the various suburban routes, round to Victoria, to
Sutton and East Croydon. There are pictures available online - they can be
found in the District Dave forum's current thread about LO/SN station
signage...

I'm quite intrigued by this, because it is basically what I was suggesting
was needed in a discussion here a good few months back - I was concerned
that the helpful 'Overground Network Mark 1' style route diagrams would be
lost to new LO policy...

Paul S

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming
from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could
see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I
guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1
rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback?

I'm fairly sure, yes. It definitely makes sense for pax to see predictable
operational procedures, ie LO usually 'straight through' and SN in the bay,
but I think during perturbations we could also see SN using the turnback and
LO in the bay.

I think the central turnback also allows for more than one train length, it
will be interesting to see if ECS moves result in two units arriving in
multiple...

I'm not keen on the approach to timetables in the new ELL leaflet. A
very odd mix of frequency guide for the "core" section, first and last
trains and then "real" timetable but only from Surrey Quays southwards.
If I was commuting from Sydenham to Shoreditch High Street I would find
the leaflet almost impenetrable in terms of knowing the times that the
trains departed and arrived.

If I'm reading that correctly it also seems to wrongly imply a change might
be necessary at Surrey Quays - which would deter some potential passengers?

Paul S

On 23 May, 13:04, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2010 12:34:48 +0100, "Paul Scott"





wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 22 May 2010 23:50:57 -0700 (PDT), Richard Adamfi
wrote:

I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. *It
actually came at 0649.

Well I was at Dalston at about 0635 but that's just how the buses worked
out to get me there before 0656.

The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first
trip.

Unfortunately the station did not open until 0707 when a driver came up
from his train to find the staff. The first train therefore had been and
gone. He released the door from the inside. *The station staff were
outside with the passengers waiting for a key to turn up. *The platform
displays were showing the wrong train on the wrong platform for some
reason. Needless to say there was no opportunity for the staff to hand
out the freebies as they'd only just made it into the station.

All I can say is "not very good". *Thankfully there was only a handful
of people around that early in the day at Dalston.

They didn't preview at this sort of time last weekend then? A shame because
one of the major selling points of LO is the staffed stations - perhaps they
could allow a few more individuals their own keys...

I understand preview service started at 0800 on a Sunday. *I expect
lessons will be learnt. *There'll be plenty more as they get more and
more passengers.

... The passenger
info system there got "its knickers in a twist" about what train was
going from what platform but eventually it sorted itself out. It
initially thought the ELLX was going from the bay platform which is
something of a physical impossibility!

AIUI the ELL trains will normally run through P4 to the new reversing
siding, then return through P2, but I don't think there is any physical
reason why P1 couldn't be used if needed?

The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming
from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could
see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I
guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1
rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback?

I was also a bit boggled about the "physical impossibility" comment,
but I infer that you meant that the train was already in the turnback
siding, from which it's then not possible to reach platform 1.
Obviously trains from the east turn round in platform 1 all the time.


What I noticed at Forest Hill southbound yesterday though was a fairly
complete diagram of the various suburban routes, round to Victoria, to
Sutton and East Croydon. There are pictures available online - they can be
found in the District Dave forum's current thread about LO/SN station
signage...

I'm quite intrigued by this, because it is basically what I was suggesting
was needed in a discussion here a good few months back - I was concerned
that the helpful 'Overground Network Mark 1' style route diagrams would be
lost to new LO policy...

I think I have seen those photos. Anything which keeps things clear for
passengers has to be good. *Obviously it is early days but I hope that
once the stations have been refurbished with new signs that there will
be comprehensive signage that reflects the existence of Southern's
services. It would be unacceptable for a new service like the ELL to end
up creating a new segregationist mentality on the rail network. *

We have to hope that South Eastern at New Cross end up recognising the
existence of the ELL service.

Talking of which, I was trying to contrive a reason to use the ELL on
its first full day (still haven't used it), but I couldn't be arsed
when I found that South Eastern isn't serving New Cross today.

And off at a tangent as usual ... The Bexleyheath line had
overcrowding at rush hour levels today because the trains were only
four coaches despite being the first in the bunch of the half-hourly
flighted service of all Lewisham and Dartford services via the Tanners
Hill single track.



I'm not keen on the approach to timetables in the new ELL leaflet. *A
very odd mix of frequency guide for the "core" section, first and last
trains and then "real" timetable but only from Surrey Quays southwards.
If I was commuting from Sydenham to Shoreditch High Street I would find
the leaflet almost impenetrable in terms of knowing the times that the
trains departed and arrived. *I sincerely hope there is a switch to a
full timetable layout for the ELL as happens with all of the other
Overground lines. *It would be horrendous if the ELL leaflet is a
precursor to the approach to be adopted for the NLL when services become
more frequent than every 10 minutes.
--
Paul C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 23 May, 18:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2010 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
On 23 May, 13:04, Paul Corfield wrote:
The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming
from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could
see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I
guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1
rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback?

I was also a bit boggled about the "physical impossibility" comment,
but I infer that you meant that the train was already in the turnback
siding, from which it's then not possible to reach platform 1.

Correct inference.

Obviously trains from the east turn round in platform 1 all the time.

You have to make allowances for us "north of the river people" for whom
the "Southern Region" is still a bit of a mystery.

From that fact that you survived, I assume that you had plenty of
garlic and silver bullets.

On 23 May, 12:12, Abigail Brady wrote:
As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming
that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself
later...

I was on the same train. I heard the correction that the train would
now depart from platform 3, but did not hear the original
announcement. If they're going to reverse four Overground trains in
platform 3 each hour without getting in the way of Southern trains
running through the station then there are going to have to be some
pretty smart turn-arounds.

I can't remember which carriage I was in, but it wasn't very full when
it left Croydon. A baby in a three-wheeled buggy thing, and a small
boy with a bicycle got on at some point, and the train didn't seem to
have any problem taking either; there's plenty of standing space.

The air-conditioning seemed to be somewhat over-efficient; I prefer
the temperature to be somewhat on the low side, but this felt quite
cold to me. The return journey later in the day was several degrees
warmer. I got out at Dalston, then 38 bus to Victoria to visit
Photographica, 24 bus to Hampstead Heath, Rail replacement bus to
Dalston, then Overground to Crystal Palace. Looking North at Dalston,
the line seems to curve to the West; Is there any provision to be
able to re-build the East curve if needed in the future? It doesn't
look like it.

Stephen Furley wrote:
On 23 May, 12:12, Abigail Brady wrote:
As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming
that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself
later...

I was on the same train. I heard the correction that the train would
now depart from platform 3, but did not hear the original
announcement. If they're going to reverse four Overground trains in
platform 3 each hour without getting in the way of Southern trains
running through the station then there are going to have to be some
pretty smart turn-arounds.

Not so - they'll run through into the turnback siding thoughtfully provided
just beyond the station, as reported in Paul C's post elsewhere in the
thread.

Paul S