In message
Chris Tolley (ukonline really) wrote:

Graeme wrote:

In message
Chris Tolley (ukonline really) wrote:

Graeme wrote:

In message
Chris Tolley (ukonline really)
wrote:

Graeme wrote:

In message
Chris Tolley (ukonline really)
wrote:

Graeme wrote:
Speed cameras, like many other automated processes, make
decisions based on a previously defined sets of circumstances.
In this case IF vx THEN take picture. Making such decisions
does not infer that the machinery involved is intelligent. As
the cameras are, alledgedly, to enforce safe behaviour then the
decision process programmed into them can be presumed to be
intended to choose between safe/not safe. Therefore, as far as
the camera's programmed instructions are concerned, IF vx THEN
the vehicle is being driven safely.

No, the cameras are there to enforce the speed limit. That is all
they do. Someone could be driving their car sideways, but within
the limit. It's your assumption or the assertion of others that
cameras monitor safety. And it's a flawed way of looking at it.

That is what they are marketed as.

That'll be the assertion of others I was talking about.

So you agree with me?

I'm taking your word on the marketing. I'm not assenting to the proposition
that cameras monitor safety. Pick the bones out of that as you wish.

In other words you agree with me.


The point I was labouriously trying to make is that reliance on
detection and punishment of a single factor by automated means
because it is an easy and cheap, or even profitable, way of
policing the roads is not the best option available. Especially
when the factor being detected is responsible for a very small
percentage of accidents overall.

[snip]

You may be perfectly right in saying that those who perceive the
cameras as enforcing safety are being lulled into a false sense of
security, but that's a problem of their perception (and yours, it
seems) but not everyone sees things in the same way.

Why should it be mine? I don't believe the cameras have more than a
peripheral effect on road safety.

Ah. I had been interpreting your repeated remarks about safety as if
you believed that was what hey were there for.

You obviously haven't read my comments that closely.

I've read what I've read most closely. But I haven't read all of your
comments to everyone else.

I thought I'd always made it clear that I don't buy into the 'speed cameras
are there just for safety' arguement.


Further the system is manifestly weighted against the private
motorist as against other road users. A speed camera on a 70mph
dual carriageway will detect a motorist exceding the speed limit
by 8mph but will not detect a white van exceding the speed limit
by 15mph or an HGV exceding the speed limit by 20mph. (assuming
the camera is set for the 10% allowed error of the speedometers)

That's undeniable. It's not that much different from the general
law enforcement case, though, is it. Some people are caught. Others
go unpunished.

It is a lot different in that the chance of getting caught is
weighted in favour(?) of one group of potential offenders.

One could argue the other way too, in that big vehicles have
tachographs, while small ones don't. I was once aboard a coach on the
A12 that was flagged down by a police officer who then boarded it,
looked at the recording, and issued a ticket accordingly.

Techographs can be tampered with and if you are totally reliant on
cameras to enforce speed limits there won't be any police officers around
to flag down errant HGVs/PSVs. Which is exactly what has been happening.
And white van man gets away with it both ways.

Any particular reason for making the same point after it has already been
acknowledged?

You were the one that introduced tachographs into the discussion. I was
merely answering that point.

It sounds like you are trying to convince me that just because a system
can't do everything, it shouldn't do anything.


I fail to see how you arrive at that conclusion. Despite your earlier
protestations you don't seem to be understanding the point I have been
making.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail
Photo galleries at http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/