Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Clive D. W.
Feather breathed:
In article , Pyromancer
writes

People who say we shouldn't in any way punish wrongdoers are, IMHO, a
major part of the problem. Convicted criminal should have all their
human rights suspended for the duration of their sentences. Rights come
with responsibilities, and those who abdicate their responsibilities
should also lose their rights.

That's nonsense. By that logic, an old lady convicted of taking a tin
of beans without paying should be tortured in prison.

Now you are talking nonsense. Old women nicking tins of beans are
unlikely to end up in prison anyway, and even if they somehow did,
torture would be out as it wouldn't be proportional to the crime
committed. Fairness, justice and proportionality do not depend on
anyone having or not having rights. Animals do not have rights, yet we
still impose rules of fair treatment on those who handle animals.

The concept of human rights does *not* preclude punishment. However:
- Some rights (right to life, right not to be tortured) are absolute,
and should apply to everyone regardless of status.

Sorry, but I disagree. Those who rape and murder multiple victims
deserve neither life nor rights. Those who hurl lumps of concrete at
trains and busses to the severe risk of injury transport staff and
members of the public deserve at the very least a public flogging and
confiscation of a large proportion of their personal wealth.

True justice requires an element of vengeance - so the victims (or their
relatives) can feel that the state has used its strength to inflict real
and serious suffering on the evildoers who harmed them.

- The fact that someone is being punished does not mean that your other
actions should not be proportionate. Someone in prison is being
confined as a punishment and/or for the public safety, not to act as
a punchbag (physically or mentally) for psychopaths (whether in
uniform or not).

Agreed - thuggish prison guards are the bane of any fair justice system
(see numerous worked examples across the world) - but so are cushy
prisons where the inmates get better medical care and better food than
poor but honest people living outside.

I am *not* saying that we should not punish wrongdoers. But we should
apply the appropriate punishment, and only the appropriate punishment,
in a consistent manner.

I'd agree with you completely there. Though I suspect we have very
wildly differing views on what counts as "appropriate".

--
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