On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:00:23 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)


This is the one that worries me, and is really steep IMO.

It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because
of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to
watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated
exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of
weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really.

I would have insisted on validating my card or else wanting to
understand that the system was set up to deal with an open exit - as was
done for Sloane Square during the Chelsea Flower Show when an ungated
exit has to be used.

Also, that's terribly sneaky to introduce that hike in November, when
people are not expecting changes. Could they not have waited a month? It'll
catch a lot of people out.

I think it is better to introduce it separately in advance of the fares
revision so people can become accustomed to the change. Doing it
alongside all the fares changes would create more confusion and
difficulty for passengers and staff.

* * * * *

Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived
in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch
in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal
gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was
doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with
£8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch-
ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the
penalty charge not count towards the daily cap?

I don't understand why this would trigger anything. Judging from your
description you are saying he leant over and touched his card on the
reader on the exit side of the gate - if so no problem.

Quite why he didn't just use the manual gate validator I do not know -
these work in both entry and exit mode depending on what your card says.
If your last transaction was an entry at a logical location and within a
logical time then the validator will assume you are exiting. It employs
the same logic to determine if you are entering.

If the chap placed his card on the entry gate reader then I accept that
would create an unresolved transaction as the card will not recognise an
exit transaction. Capping is voided by the presence of unresolved
transactions - hence the constant exhortations to always touch in and
out even if you have a travelcard because you might be making a PAYG
extension trip. If you have made several extension trips from PAYG
alongside a Travelcard ticket the cap could still be invoked but only if
the card can recognise all journeys as complete for the day in question.

Or does the system acknowledge this happens sometimes?

The system can only recognise unresolved journeys if a particular mode
has been activated on the gates - emergency exits is one such situation
as are planned events like the Chelsea Flower Show mentioned above. This
was something that had to be planned in to avoid the system being a
hindrance to safe operation when very large crowds have to be handled in
a different way to normal operation.

Another question: if someone goes to Stratford and intends to go to
Liverpool Street on the overground, touches the PAYG thingy on Platform 5,
realises there's a problem with the train and changes his mind and goes on
the Central Line instead... what happens with that touch-in on Platform 5?
In the end, I was so worried about being charged for a rail journey I never
took (it was the only journey I was making that day, so it wouldn't have
been capped) that I stayed and waited 15 minutes for my train after
touching in, rather than get the Central (I'd have been there in 12
minutes!) Typically, there was no one around to ask and if I had, I
probably would have been met with utter cluelessness as per usual.

You were registered as in the system. You could quite happily have
travelled by Central Line and the exit gate anywhere on the system
(except Stratford) would have made the appropriate fare deduction. You
are not restricted to next going through the gates at Liverpool St
mainline.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!