Andy wrote:

On Oct 13, 3:59 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Oct, 15:32, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 13 Oct, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:

At the moment it is pure speculation to suggest WJ will join zone A -
there's been no announcements whatsoever, and could well stay outside
of the zonal system altogether.

"The consultation requires the 'London' fares and ticketing
obligations for the West Midlands franchise to only extend to 'the
London Zones', i.e. between Harrow & Wealdstone and London Euston and
not on to Bushey and Watford Junction. TfL draw DfT's attention to
the fact that local 'DC' services operated under the London Rail
concession from November 2007 and calling at Bushey and Watford
Junction will allow full 'Oyster' ticket availability and, on that
route, see an extension of the Zonal system to Watford Junction.
"http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/Franchises...

So I'd say it's fairly likely the situation shown on the promotional
map is accurate.

U

Interesting, thanks for that.

I would add that in that statement it is TfL who sees the extension of
the zonal system to WJ, as opposed to the new London Midland TOC who
may not be so willing if it loses them money. I do also wonder if DfT
Rail has a properly considered opinion on this issue at all!

I hope that the situation as shown on the map does come to be and WJ
does become part of zone A, with Oyster PAYG valid on both the DC
lines services and the fast London Midland trains. However I can see
that London Midland might want to kick up a stink about it - after all
there is a qualitative difference between a fast train from WJ to
Euston that stops once and the somewhat slower Met line service from
Watford to central London.

It will be interesting to see what happens in November!! I've already
seen that the Oyster readers are installed at Watford Junction. Don't
forget that Bushey also has fast trains to Euston which will be run by
London Midland and that there are often calls by 'mainline' trains at
Wembley Central (although currently Silverlink only stop with their
trains after midnight). Another question will be whether Southern will
accept the Oyster prepay, I would guess that they will from Wembley to
Watford, if London Midland accept it due Govia being involved in both
franchises.

I did forget about the fast trains that stop at Bushey! Thanks for the
reminder. That puts Bushey in the same situation as Watford Junction
with regards to whether the London Midland fast trains will accept
Oyster PAYG then. Out of interest does Bushey have ticket gates
installed?

I never knew about the fast (Silverlink County) trains that call at
Wembley Central in the dead of night. Having just looked at Table 66
of the timetable I find that they stop at these times:

To Euston: M-F 0054, 0421; Sat 0054, 0435, 0530; Sun 0315
ex Euston: M-F 0045, 0147; Sat 0145, 0211; none on sunday
(destination being Northampton or MK Central)

How interesting, I wonder what the logic is behind these stops -
perhaps to provide a means of travel to railway staff who work at the
nearby Wembley depots?

As you say, if London Midland opts in to Oyster PAYG then Oyster
readers would have to be provided at the entrance to the mainline
platforms at Wembley Central to cater for these trains as well I guess
(unless they were somehow excepted from Oyster PAYG acceptance).

And then, as you say, there's the question of whether Southern would
accept Oyster PAYG from WJ to Wembley Central.

Indeed there's the question of whether Southern would accept Oyster
PAYG from Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia to
consider as well given that LO will accept it on their WLL services
from these stations.

There's also the issue of the mass confusion that'll occur at Clapham
Junction as lots of pax erroneously use Oyster PAYG to get through the
barriers when only one service from CJ will actually be accepting
Oyster PAYG (the LO service up the WLL to Willesden Jn).

One solution might be what they've done at London Bridge, where Oyster
PAYG is accepted on FCC/Thameslink only but doesn't operate the gates
- passengers have to be let through the manual side gate by staff and
touch-in/out on an Oyster reader on the platform (though the number of
pax actually using Oyster PAYG at London Bridge must be very small
given that most would use the faster Northern line to reach points
north instead).


Also, is it possible that there is still an agreement between LUL and
National Rail in place? Revenue used to be shared, in some form, when
the Bakerloo ran to Watford Junction. Is it possible that tfl can
'force' acceptance of its tickets (i.e. prepay) regardless of the
actual train taken.

Given that, north of Queens Park, traditionally it was BR/NR that set
the fares (I think this dates from when LNWR opened the 'New Lines'
aka the 'DC lines' from Euston to Watford Junction) I don't think TfL
has any power to force acceptance of its tickets from Watford Junction
on the fast London Midland trains.

As Paul Corfield has pointed out it will be difficult to enforce a
situation where Oyster PAYG is only accepted on LO trains and not fast
London Midland trains, given that passengers for both services will
pass through exactly the same gatelines at both WJ and Euston. I guess
there could be a copycat implementation of the far less than ideal
situation I described at London Bridge, and so Oyster PAYG wouldn't
operate the gates at WJ and pax using PAYG have to pass through the
side gate and touch-in/out on a reader on the platform.


I don't think that the revenue difference will be too great anyway.
Many of the tickets used from Watford Junction to London, both peak
and off-peak, are travelcards and the add on is small. It maybe that
Govia demand a premium fare for prepay exits at Watford and Bushey, to
make up their revenue loss.

The question in my mind is whether any premium demanded by London
Midland/Govia from TfL could be accommodated if TfL were to include WJ
in zone A.

It's obviously be a cleaner, simpler and far preferable situation (at
least from the point of pax) if WJ were to become part of zone A - but
perhaps the premium demanded by London Midland would make it
uneconomic for TfL to do this and absorb the financial hit rather than
passing it on to passengers who used WJ.

Another question in my mind is how many pax who currently use the Met
line from Watford into central London, because it is cheaper than
travelling via WJ - would then switch to travelling from WJ to take
advantage of the fast trains? This might lead to overcrowding on the
fast trains from WJ, something that London Midland might be wary of.
Perhaps there's not that many price conscious passengers who'd do
this, though there could be a whole load more travelling via WJ if and
when the Met line's Croxley link gets built (the link that would
divert the Met line's Watford branch directly into Watford Junction).