On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:49:26 -0000, Andy wrote:

On Nov 8, 1:48 pm, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:48 -0800, wrote:
On 7 Nov, 17:10, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:32:40 -0000, "Paul Scott"

wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:16:48 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:

"Ken" wrote

But Oyster PAYG will be accepted from Day One, throughout the
"Overground" network, even to Watford Jct., which is a big change.

Presumably Oyster PAYG will also be accepted on Southern between Watford
Junction and Clapham Junction, and on West Midlands (ex-Silverlink County)
between Watford Junction and Euston. But is this spelt out anywhere?
Presumably, though, not on VWC between Watford Junction and Euston, in
view
of the take up/set down status of stops at Watford Junction.

The specific references to "North London Railway" and the map on:-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ground-map.pdf
would seem to exclude Southern and the non-DC route from Euston to
Watford.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. If you drew a map of the
Metropolitan line without showing the Chiltern route, would that allow an
inference to be drawn about PAYG availability on Chiltern?

An inference is not always a certainty either way (and it depends on
the actual purpose of such a map). However, the information so far
published refers specifically to the "North London Railway" which does
not include the Southern franchise to/from Watford Junction. AFAIAA
that franchise is already a specific exemption from PAYG and appears
to remain so in the absence of further advice of any change.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Presumably the specific exemption for Oyster PAYG on Southern you are
referring to is that Oyster PAYG cannot be used on the Southern trains
which stop at Harrow & Wealdstone and Wembley Central even though
Oyster PAYG is valid on the DC line over that stretch or are you
thinking of something else?

No it isnt. PAYG is unavailable on the WLL
(see p.11 on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._out_of_Oyster...)
and using that route requires use of a Travelcard or a non-zonal
ticket. This prevents use of PAYG from Kensington to Wembley Central
(Southern), Clapham Junction or Willesden Junction (Vomitlink).
snip

Ahh, the delights of changing operators!

From Sunday, the WLL will be included in PAYG as all the former
Silverlink Metro routes will be from day 1. Currently, however, it is
unclear as to whether Oyster PAYG is / will be available from Harrow &
Wealdstone to Wembley Central on the Southern trains. It certainly is
available on both the DC trains and the silverlink county trains that
stop at both stations (only a couple of night trains for county). If
you read the TFL leaflet referred to, it implies that Southern would
accept PAYG as operators are not mentioned on page 11, however, the
National Railway website only states Silverlink.

The TfL leaflet seems to be operator-transparent by quoting only
routes and by implication involves whoever is the franchise-holder at
the relevant time. Are the Oyster arrangements a matter between TfL
and individual operators or between TfL and the relevant rep for the
DfT/OPRAF/etc. ?

The map referred to earlier in the thread applied to the post 11th
November situation, as London Overground are shown as running the
trains, not national rail.

National Rail don't operate trains, it is a marketing name of ATOC who
currently have a "London Schemes" page on their website which is blank
(but maybe won't be in a few days' time?). London Overground** is
likewise a marketing name for services to be operated by TfL who
currently are not listed as members of ATOC; the physical operator of
London Overground services has been announced as MTR-Laing :-
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5328.aspx

** There are a company registrations for "London Overground Ltd" (No.
3697180, in liquidation) and "London Overground Rail Operations Ltd"
(No. 5668786). Wikipedia claims that the former is a TOC which will
take over the North London Railway franchise which is possibly news to
Companies House; the latter now appears to be the current version (a
joint venture company) of the MTR-Laing franchise holding above. We
thus have the usual scope for confusion between "registered as" and
"trading as" names (the company in liquidation seems totally
unconnected as it traces back to a terraced house in Halifax).

Whether the extension of PAYG to Clapham
Junction for the London Overground trains will mean that Southern will
also accept it from Harrow - Clapham remains to be seen. Personally, I
think that they will take it, as London Overground will be the main
service provider for the route and it will be quite difficult to stop
people using PAYG on Southern trains between Olympia and West Brompton
and through to Clapham Junction.

As a local service it would seem to be a natural development of the
TfL/Oyster/Travelcard arrangements for the Southern service to be
included in the PAYG payment system. Isn't there something within
franchising arrangements where an operator providing services within
the area of another "inherits" an obligation to carry the passengers
on the same tickets ?