On Dec 9, 4:30*pm, MIG wrote:
On 9 Dec, 14:58, David Cantrell wrote:

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:34:17AM -0800, John B wrote:
The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no
reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't
sold.

Do LU sell one day travelcards on Oyster now then? *Travelcards are
season tickets, the one day version just happen to be for a very short
season.

And it's possible that one might realise later in the day that one
needs to extend zones. *That's happened to me too.

....but won't after January, because you'll simply be able to use your
Oyster card on all means of transport within the zones and
automatically be charged the ODTC price as a cap.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:

In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the
abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going
to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no
advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?)

Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of
those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards?

Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to
arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either...

Paul S

On Dec 10, 3:20*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
John B wrote:
In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the
abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going
to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no
advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?)

Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of
those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards?

Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to
arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either...

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

The only problem is the outboundary ODTC. There'd be no reason to put
the inboundary card "on" Oyster - the plan is that capped PAYG would
replace it.

I can see it getting to the point in not too much time, though, where
TfL consider withdrawing from the through ticketing arrangements with
the mainline (or insist an outboundary period Travelcard is issued in
two bits - Oyster for London, paper for the rest) because maintaining
the barriers would be cheaper without all the moving parts in the
magstripe reading bit.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:

In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the
abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going
to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no
advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?)

Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of
those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards?

Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to
arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either...

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand
Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if
everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card,
use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper
ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:04:42 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

The only problem is the outboundary ODTC. There'd be no reason to put
the inboundary card "on" Oyster - the plan is that capped PAYG would
replace it.

I can see it getting to the point in not too much time, though, where
TfL consider withdrawing from the through ticketing arrangements with
the mainline (or insist an outboundary period Travelcard is issued in
two bits - Oyster for London, paper for the rest) because maintaining
the barriers would be cheaper without all the moving parts in the
magstripe reading bit.

What about NR point-to-point singles and returns (with the
cross-London marker)?

River services seems to be fudge. With a paper ODTC (or period travelcard on oyster) you get a 33% discount, but with a PAYG Oyster Card you only get 10%. It also doesn't count towards the cap - so if you are using river services it is significantly cheaper to use a paper ODTC.

On Dec 11, 8:13*am, asdf wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:
In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the
abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going
to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no
advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?)

Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of
those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards?

Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to
arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either...

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand
Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if
everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card,
use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper
ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination.

I think it's a massive and absurd exaggeration. For a start, I don't
think the vast majority of travellers even particularly think about
the public transport system where they're going, much less the
ticketing methods used on it.

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 11 Dec, 13:06, John B wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:13*am, asdf wrote:





On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:
In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the
abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going
to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no
advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?)

Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of
those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards?

Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to
arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either...

The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer
offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift
the ODTC to Oyster.

(it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the
population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...)

What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand
Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if
everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card,
use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper
ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination.

I think it's a massive and absurd exaggeration. For a start, I don't
think the vast majority of travellers even particularly think about
the public transport system where they're going, much less the
ticketing methods used on it.

In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available
for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending
machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations -
and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged
with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty
straightforward for everyone.

(and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus
from Londoners' perspective.)

That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account
people's circumstances.

That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far,
so why should it suddenly change?

"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:09:05 -0800 (PST)
MIG wrote:
"TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account
reality over the the last few years, but they refused.

Oyster was introduced to benefit TfL, no one else. So they'll do whats in
their interests and the passenger can go hang. Its the typical "we know whats
good for you" finger wagging british attitude.

B2003