In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:05:14 -0600,
wrote:

[2010 fares document]

Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has
zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares?

I have no idea at all. I was expecting a booklet to be published as
normal. While the 2010 package is undoubtedly more complex it is not
beyond a written explanation as evidenced by the TfL website. I expect
ticket selling staff have been getting it in the neck for weeks and that
next week will be hell for them.

My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued
push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it
is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have
similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables.

It's also very hard on those without access to the internet or familiarity
with how to use it, mainly the old, if the internet is the only means of
access to information.

I'm surprised some disabled groups haven't got on to them. They don't get
free travel on NR or do they?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote:
What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at
when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document,
albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if
not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have
dug out that PDF.

This document covers most things:
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...fares-2010.pdf

It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes
have been made.

U

David Walters wrote

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:07:52 +0000, Paul Terry wrote:

Sunil Sood writes
Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether
using
PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an
individual?

I don't, but I can't see how PAYG would ever be cheaper than an
annual
Travelcard for somebody making the same journey for 5 days a week
throughout most of the year.

It used to be for me. Zone 4 into zone 1 at 2.80 each way, 5 days a
week for 46 weeks a year (bank holidays and 4 weeks annual leave) is
1288 rather than 1472 for an annual travel card.

In 2010 PAYG increases to 1426 which makes it close enough that a
travelcard is worth it for the added flexibility.

So any such website would need an estimate of your normal travel plus
how often you took a bus rather than walking (£1.00 extra) plus how
often you left for work after 9:30 or started your journey home after
19.00 (£0.60 less for each - overtime or shifts or after work evening
shopping). Best case would reduce 1288 to 1012 for comparison with the
annual 1472.

--
Mike D

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:05:14 -0600,
wrote:

[2010 fares document]

Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has
zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares?

I have no idea at all. I was expecting a booklet to be published as
normal. While the 2010 package is undoubtedly more complex it is not
beyond a written explanation as evidenced by the TfL website. I expect
ticket selling staff have been getting it in the neck for weeks and that
next week will be hell for them.

My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued
push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it
is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have
similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables.

But it's not on the web in a usable form, not that I can find

tim

On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:
On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:





On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. An OEP isn't a means of payment. Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? That's going to be the main issue. It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

Mr Thant wrote on 31 December
2009 19:45:46 ...
On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote:
What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at
when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document,
albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if
not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have
dug out that PDF.

This document covers most things:
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...fares-2010.pdf

It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes
have been made.

Did the Mayor actually sign that "Request for Mayoral Decision" or were
any changes made? I'm not inclined to trust what is only a proposal.

I urge everyone who is concerned about this to complain vigorously to
TfL and their elected GLA representatives/councillors/members or
whatever they are supposed to be called these days. (It's easier in
Paris where they are just "élus" - the elected ones.)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

wrote

(John B) wrote:


"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper
(and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need
to
currently"

To me, that means:

"If you have an annual Travelcard on Oyster and want to travel
outside
your zones on NR, it will be cheaper to get a paper extension ticket
with the Gold Card discount from a manned ticket office (which is
inconvenient, and which you need to do at the moment) than to use
the Oyster PAYG functionality with no Gold Card discount".

I'm not clear what the fares are either way in this example from
Saturday.
What are they?

I take it that paper extensions like all in-zone paper singles will be
'Anytime' so I think cheaper only applies if you intend to travel in
the evening peak. At other times "anytime fare less 1/3" won't be more
than
"Oyster Off-Peak"

IEP doesn't even apply here - this point simply reflects the
unfathomably weird / crooked (according to taste) fact that even
though discounts for YP, Senior and Disabled railcards have been
enabled on Oyster, Network and Gold Card discounts haven't.

But the only railcard discounts are to caps, so would they apply
anyway for a simple BZ2-Surbiton day return trip?

Hee !

Now /that/ is in a paper leaflet
_Oyster pay as you go on National Rail - From 2 January 2010_
as well as online

"Senior, 16-25, Disabled Persons and Forces Railcard holders can get
1/3 discounts on the adult Off-Peak Oyster PAYG /fare/ for most
journeys on
National Rail as well as 1/3 reduction on the Off-Peak daily price
cap."

Peak fares, no discount on fares, of course apply for journeys that
start between 06:30-09:30 or between 16:00-19:00.


So further, as above, if a single journey on NR in the evening peak is
the only significant travel that day (no capping) it will be cheaper to
buy
a Rail/Goldcard discounted paper ticket at "anytime fare less 1/3"
than
use Oyster PAYG.

I think.

(Copying from this NG)
The BBC article[1] quotes the 'Mayor's Transport Spokesman' as saying
that Oyster will offer the cheapest fare available; "the only
exceptions are holders of certain national railcards for whom cheaper
paper tickets for travel on national rail maybe available."

--
Mike D

Mr Thant wrote:

It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes
have been made.

"TfL has seen the biggest fall in journeys for economic reasons in over twenty
years, particularly on the Tube, where demand had fallen by 6%. In total, a fall
in revenues of around £3bn over the course of TfL’s Business Plan to 2017/18 is
now projected. This fall in revenue is also compounded by other pressures,"


Funny how you never saw a statement in past years like "Demand has increased
along with the corresponding revenues, so we need to reduce fares."

In article
,
(Mr Thant) wrote:

On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote:
What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look
at when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a
document, albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with
me, even if not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the
last year I have dug out that PDF.

This document covers most things:

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...md457-fares-20
10.pdf

It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes
have been made.

Thanks. I'll look at that when I get time.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 31 Dec 2009, 23:04, Robert Neville wrote:
Funny how you never saw a statement in past years like "Demand has increased
along with the corresponding revenues, so we need to reduce fares."

Ken just used the money to increase GLA spending.....