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Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Mark Hynes wrote:
There's no difference surely between that situation and someone with a paper travelcard exiting outside their zones, surely? Actually, there is a difference - with a paper ticket the passenger will (likely) know they're outside their zones and should be paying something extra, somehow. A passenger with both a travelcard and PAYG credit on their Oyster card is likely to think they'll have some credit deducted when they leave and not have any idea what an OEP is. (I know this has been done before, but it's still crazy) As you say, when challenged by an RPI the guy outside of his paper TC zones has no defence - it's a fair cop. OTOH the 'Oyster passenger' you describe can say 'I am going to touch out on exit' if challenged, but still not bother... Paul S |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote: Chris wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote: The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out) Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators - and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no. ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it. Paul S But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open' interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the number of NR stations that are ungated. Jonathan Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at West Harrow and Finchley Central aren't either. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Rupert Candy wrote
On Jan 3, 12:51*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: You cannot register Gold Cards or Network Cards onto Oyster cards And this, to my mind, is the biggest fudge of the whole lot. The whole point of the Gold Card is that it recognises the loyalty of those who put up ~2 grand in advance, and the Oyster card must 'know' it holds an annual season. How hard would it be for said annual season to trigger an automatic 'Railcard' flag, thus allowing Gold Card holders the same reduced cap as (e.g.) YP card holders? As discussed here, the cheapest Gold card is less than £150 (forget whether it is between Ryde - Ryde Pierhead or Exeter/other Exeter). And Gold (and Network) card discounts only kick in after 10:00 M-F so don't match the 9:30 off-peak start of Railcards and NR/Tfl. Allow registration for W/E only ? -- Mike D |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Neil Williams wrote:
The solution to all this is to remove all situations (other than equipment failure) where you'd legitimately touch in using an Oyster and not touch out. This would be done by changing paper BZ extensions such that they are valid for any journey from inside the Zones the Travelcard is valid for to the specified destination, but are shown as only valid when carrying the specific numbered Oyster card shown (and checked) at purchase (to prevent double-use). It's a solution but it doesn't take into account the number of stations that are simply not physically designed for the peak hour crowds to all have stop to use readers, let alone barriers. My local station, Forest Gate, is just one where the evening crowd is so big that I can easily see chaos, fights and people risking their lives by crossing the fast tracks to the quiet platform all for the sake of getting out of the station quicker rather than waiting an eternity to squeeze through a narrow hallway with only a couple of readers - and having to deal with London bound passengers fighting to get to their own platform. The station just isn't designed * for that and for that matter it will also create problems on the trains and at Stratford because even more people will be trying to wedge themselves into the front carriages in the hope of getting out quicker. Until the station, and many like it, are designed to make the crowd flow smoother, requiring everyone to touch out will be utterly unworkable. (* Actually when originally built Forest Gate was actually reasonably designed for this because stopping services used what are now the fast tracks and vice versa. On that configuration the evening peak crowd would have used platform 4 which had both its own staircase to the ticket hall and also a ramp to a direct street exit. The staircase has now been bricked up.) |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Jan 3, 8:19*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Rupert Candy wrote On Jan 3, 12:51*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: You cannot register Gold Cards or Network Cards onto Oyster cards And this, to my mind, is the biggest fudge of the whole lot. *The whole point of the Gold Card is that it recognises the loyalty of those who put up ~2 grand in advance, and the Oyster card must 'know' it holds an annual season. *How hard would it be for said annual season to trigger an automatic 'Railcard' flag, thus allowing Gold Card holders the same reduced cap as (e.g.) YP card holders? As discussed here, the cheapest Gold card is less than £150 (forget whether it is between Ryde - Ryde Pierhead or Exeter/other Exeter). That's still quite a lot more than the cost of any other Railcard (particularly if you're never actually going to get any Ryde-Ryde travel for your 150 quid). And Gold (and Network) card discounts only kick in after 10:00 M-F so don't match the *9:30 off-peak start of Railcards and NR/Tfl. Allow registration for W/E only ? It's just that the USP of having a Travelcard Season on Oyster (and, frankly, the reason why I went out of my way to get my Z1-5 on Oyster rather than just buying a paper season from my local Southeastern station) has always been that it's possible to extend its validity using pre-pay (where valid, obviously) *without* having to plan in advance and buy some sort of extension ticket. I accept that OEPs have made a complete mockery of that advantage insofar as NR is concerned, but we now have a situation where, at least off-peak, it is *never* worthwhile for a Gold Card holder to use pre-pay to extend their zones on NR, rather than buying a paper, discounted extension. That seems entirely counter to the spirit of Oyster and the (semi-) integrated zonal fare system, not to mention completely bonkers to an outside observer. Sorry, I'm really quite cross about this. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 20:46:14 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: Until the station, and many like it, are designed to make the crowd flow smoother, requiring everyone to touch out will be utterly unworkable. But it *wouldn't* require everyone to touch out. Only those who have some PAYG credit. (I think that's a "user friendlier" way of making the differentiation than the OEP - "you have to have the money on your card before you start your journey if you wish to go out of zone"). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote: It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR stations can issue OEPs? Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two (or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket could see some non-optimal charges as well. Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23 Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath (Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern. Would it be removed at Balham though? Balham is in the zones and the route could have been via Finsbury Park. It doesn't seem likely that it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out at an NR-only station in zone 1. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
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Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 3 Jan, 20:02, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote: On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote: Chris wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote: The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out) Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators - and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no. ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it. Paul S But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open' interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the number of NR stations that are ungated. Jonathan Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at *West Harrow and Finchley Central aren't either. Er ... and the whole of the DLR. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 15:22:05 -0600,
wrote: You cannot register Gold Cards or Network Cards onto Oyster cards Another stupidity then. It is bloody silly. I don't see why the system can't cope with just giving a weekend discount on the Network Card cap. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Jan 3, 9:21*pm, MIG wrote:
Would it be removed at Balham though? *Balham is in the zones and the route could have been via Finsbury Park. *It doesn't seem likely that it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out at an NR-only station in zone 1.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ah, Balham... the real issue with Oyster PAYG is the differential in fares between different routes between what appear to the general user as the same two stations in the same zone according to TfL's new Oyster map. How is that general user supposed to understand that travel between those two stations might cost different amounts? As an e.g. Oxford Circus and Balham costs £2.70 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 and £2.40 At all other times including public holidays travelling wholly by tube and £3.70 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900 and £3.10 At all other times including public holidays changing to Southern at London Victoria. However travel between Oxford Circus and Finsbury Park is the same price whether or not you change to FCC at Kings Cross. You need a masters degree in the fares manuals to figure out the permutations and few will know about the TfL fares finder still less check it for each unusual journey. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote:
On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote: On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote: It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR stations can issue OEPs? Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two (or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket could see some non-optimal charges as well. Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23 Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath (Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern. Would it be removed at Balham though? Balham is in the zones and the route could have been via Finsbury Park. It doesn't seem likely that it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out at an NR-only station in zone 1. Hmm. If that's the case it means that if you have a Z23 Travelcard and want to travel from Kentish Town to Herne Hill, you need an OEP for the journey, but the OEP is not removed at the end of the journey, so you're stuck with it and have to go out of your way to get rid of it. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:40:38 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:
Paul Terry wrote: In message , MIG writes My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it unusable. That opinion hasn't changed. While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think that will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first announced it was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need an OEP was incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the procedure difficult, of course, but it is not necessarily an Oyster-stopping issue. I suspect as franchises are renewed (as seen with SN recently), DfT will work towards having all stations in the zonal area fitted with barriers, at which time OEPs will become redundant? They'd only become redundant if the stations were also staffed while open, since the barriers would have to be left open while the station is unstaffed, which at many stations is most or all of the time. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:02:13 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote: On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote: Chris wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote: The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out) Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators - and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no. ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it. Paul S But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). *If TfL want to leave barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open' interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the number of NR stations that are ungated. Jonathan Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at West Harrow and Finchley Central aren't either. Nor is Waterloo (W&C). And aren't there a few stations (Bank?) where the lifts allow you to bypass the gateline? |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 3 Jan, 21:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:02:13 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote: On 3 Jan, 19:09, Jonathan Harris wrote: But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). If TfL want to leave barriers open somewhere to save on staff costs and then be subject to revenue risk, that's a different matter. I appreciate that there are now plenty of LO stations wthout barriers and various 'open' interfaces with National Rail but the number is small relative to the number of NR stations that are ungated. Jonathan Finsbury Park is not gated, and one entrance at *West Harrow and Finchley Central aren't either. Nor are any of the cross platform interchanges with TOCs or within barrier line interchanges with DLR and London Overground. *The reason these interchanges were not done was cost / practicality. For this reason I do not see every TOC station in the zones ever being gated either. *There are far too many small ticket halls and side entrances (created when BR destaffed stations years and years ago) to make it remotely feasible to put gates everywhere. *And that's before you get to the controversial places like Lewisham where South Eastern seem to have run into an unholy row over closing off a well used but unmanned entrance / exit. They've defied the ruling and closed it anyway. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 3 Jan, 13:06, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: MIG wrote: Well, in the OEP staff briefing it says, in one place "Once the OEP is loaded, when the customer touches-in to start a journey even if it is within a Zone covered by their Season ticket, an entry charge will be deducted from the card. If they touch-out still within the Zonal coverage of their Season ticket, the entry charge will be refunded and the OEP will remain on the card. If they touch-out in another Zone the fare for the additional travel will be deducted from the entry charge, the PAYG balance will be adjusted accordingly and the OEP will be cancelled." Okay the nightmare station for Oyster - Wimbledon. What if you have a stored OEP but enter the barriers to use the tram? Hopefully the platform Tramlink validator would reset it when touched in there. A few notes on OEP behaviour: having one set flashes up your PAYG balance on entry when using the newer gates even when in your Travelcard zones Tube and rail journeys within Travelcard zones made while an OEP is set now appear on the online journey history. lt seems that the instruction to only set prior to the journey to be extended is not mandatory, but is to avoid customer confusion. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote: On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote: It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR stations can issue OEPs? Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two (or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket could see some non-optimal charges as well. Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23 Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath (Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern. Would it be removed at Balham though? Balham is in the zones and the route could have been via Finsbury Park. It doesn't seem likely that it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out at an NR-only station in zone 1. Hmm. If that's the case it means that if you have a Z23 Travelcard and want to travel from Kentish Town to Herne Hill, you need an OEP for the journey, but the OEP is not removed at the end of the journey, so you're stuck with it and have to go out of your way to get rid of it. Ignoring OEPs for the moment, what happened previously when people with doughnut shaped travelcard validity made a journey that crossed the central area? Paul S |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 19:40:38 -0000, Paul Scott wrote: Paul Terry wrote: In message , MIG writes My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it unusable. That opinion hasn't changed. While I agree that OEPs currently seem a total mess, I don't think that will do anything to sabotage Oyster. When OEPs were first announced it was said that the percentage of journeys likely to need an OEP was incredibly small. That's no excuse for making the procedure difficult, of course, but it is not necessarily an Oyster-stopping issue. I suspect as franchises are renewed (as seen with SN recently), DfT will work towards having all stations in the zonal area fitted with barriers, at which time OEPs will become redundant? They'd only become redundant if the stations were also staffed while open, since the barriers would have to be left open while the station is unstaffed, which at many stations is most or all of the time. The same recent franchise changes also provide for increased staffing hours though... Paul S |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Jan 3, 7:09*pm, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote: Chris wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote: The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out) Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators - and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no. ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a validator. *The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it. Paul S But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). * And Finchley Central (Station Road exit, something about a gas main?) and Woodside Park (Northbound platform only, lack of space?). David |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
David Walters wrote:
On Jan 3, 7:09 pm, Jonathan Harris wrote: On 3 Jan, 17:40, "Paul Scott" wrote: Chris wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:52, trainmanUK wrote: The whole reason for these OEP is that many NR stations do not have barriers so if you get to your destination and see no one there you can just walk off the station with out paying (Touching out) Not so....all in-zone NR stations are or will have Oyster validators - and it is your responsibility toi touch out. Barriers or no. ISTM you've missed the very point of the previous post. He explained exactly why OEPs are needed. At unbarriered stations there is nothing whatsoever to stop a passenger who entered elsewhere with a season travelcard ignoring a validator. The TOCs aren't prepared to take that obvious revenue risk - but TfL do already, and are prepared to accept it. Paul S But ISTR that the only ungated stations on the underground are Mill Hill East (because they don't fit) and Roding Valley (because the number of passengers doesn't justify it). And Finchley Central (Station Road exit, something about a gas main?) and Woodside Park (Northbound platform only, lack of space?). And Olympia, of course (if nobody's mentioned it) -- Current nearest station: Bromley North |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 4 Jan, 08:55, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote: On 3 Jan, 15:32, asdf wrote: On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote: It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR stations can issue OEPs? Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two (or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket could see some non-optimal charges as well. Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23 Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath (Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern. Would it be removed at Balham though? *Balham is in the zones and the route could have been via Finsbury Park. *It doesn't seem likely that it would work that way based on assumed route unless you touched out at an NR-only station in zone 1. Hmm. If that's the case it means that if you have a Z23 Travelcard and want to travel from Kentish Town to Herne Hill, you need an OEP for the journey, but the OEP is not removed at the end of the journey, so you're stuck with it and have to go out of your way to get rid of it. Ignoring OEPs for the moment, what happened previously when people with doughnut shaped travelcard validity made a journey that crossed the central area? Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. That's all they seem to do elsewhere. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
MIG wrote:
Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. That's all they seem to do elsewhere. Just a quick live update from this morning: - Oyster pad not yet active on ticket machine at Bromley North (and software not yet updated). Just as well I didn't need an OEP. - Oyster reader by entrance had 'Out of use' sticker but gave me a green light and 'Enter' anyway (with a season) - New Waterloo East gateline at the top of the stairs to Waterloo Rd - but main access to station still ungated! - Touched out at new standalone readers on the Waterloo footbridge. Big new overhead sign 'Card users touch here'. So clearly not all parts of the network were quite ready for 2nd Jan... -- Current nearest station: |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Rupert Candy wrote:
MIG wrote: Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. That's all they seem to do elsewhere. Just a quick live update from this morning: - Oyster pad not yet active on ticket machine at Bromley North (and software not yet updated). Just as well I didn't need an OEP. - Oyster reader by entrance had 'Out of use' sticker but gave me a green light and 'Enter' anyway (with a season) - New Waterloo East gateline at the top of the stairs to Waterloo Rd - but main access to station still ungated! - Touched out at new standalone readers on the Waterloo footbridge. Big new overhead sign 'Card users touch here'. So clearly not all parts of the network were quite ready for 2nd Jan... The experiment continues- successfully set an OEP at one of the small machines at Pimlico, and now on the way to Feltham via Vauxhall, where we'll see what happens. -- Current nearest station: Clapham Jn |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 4 Jan, 12:33, Rupert Candy wrote:
Rupert Candy wrote: MIG wrote: Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. *That's all they seem to do elsewhere. Just a quick live update from this morning: - Oyster pad not yet active on ticket machine at Bromley North (and software not yet updated). Just as well I didn't need an OEP. - Oyster reader by entrance had 'Out of use' sticker but gave me a green light and 'Enter' anyway (with a season) - New Waterloo East gateline at the top of the stairs to Waterloo Rd - but main access to station still ungated! - Touched out at new standalone readers on the Waterloo footbridge. Big new overhead sign 'Card users touch here'. So clearly not all parts of the network were quite ready for 2nd Jan... The experiment continues- successfully set an OEP at one of the small machines at Pimlico, and now on the way to Feltham via Vauxhall, where we'll see what happens. -- Current nearest station: Clapham Jn- Is Vauxhall outside your zones? If not, the OEP won't be unset at Vauxhall (even if you exited via NR, but you'd be exiting via LU presumably, which should never unset the OEP, should it?). If so, a completely out of zone journey will start at Vauxhall NR and not need the OEP, leaving it intact presumably (how does one tell?). |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
MIG wrote:
On 4 Jan, 12:33, Rupert Candy wrote: Rupert Candy wrote: MIG wrote: Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. That's all they seem to do elsewhere. Just a quick live update from this morning: - Oyster pad not yet active on ticket machine at Bromley North (and software not yet updated). Just as well I didn't need an OEP. - Oyster reader by entrance had 'Out of use' sticker but gave me a green light and 'Enter' anyway (with a season) - New Waterloo East gateline at the top of the stairs to Waterloo Rd - but main access to station still ungated! - Touched out at new standalone readers on the Waterloo footbridge. Big new overhead sign 'Card users touch here'. So clearly not all parts of the network were quite ready for 2nd Jan... The experiment continues- successfully set an OEP at one of the small machines at Pimlico, and now on the way to Feltham via Vauxhall, where we'll see what happens. -- Current nearest station: Clapham Jn- Is Vauxhall outside your zones? If not, the OEP won't be unset at Vauxhall (even if you exited via NR, but you'd be exiting via LU presumably, which should never unset the OEP, should it?). If so, a completely out of zone journey will start at Vauxhall NR and not need the OEP, leaving it intact presumably (how does one tell?). Vauxhall is in my zones (1-5) and is an OOSI so presumably entering through the NR gateline shouldn't have any effect on the OEP. At Feltham I was deducted £1.30, which was presumably the desired effect. Might have a look at my journey history later. -- Current nearest station: Heathrow Central |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Neil Williams wrote:
Until the station, and many like it, are designed to make the crowd flow smoother, requiring everyone to touch out will be utterly unworkable. But it *wouldn't* require everyone to touch out. Only those who have some PAYG credit. (I think that's a "user friendlier" way of making the differentiation than the OEP - "you have to have the money on your card before you start your journey if you wish to go out of zone"). How many people with season tickets can actually remember if they have any PAYG on their card? I've sometimes gone months on end without needing PAYG and so wouldn't know myself. And the aim of the OEP is to prevent fare dodging by not touching out so how can they check that? |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Rupert Candy wrote:
Just a quick live update from this morning: From a short journey today: Forest Gate - poster up telling us we can now use PAYG on national rail. No Oyster pad has been added to the one ticket machine at the station (even though it has a circle that is clearly intended for one) or at the ticket office window and there were no posters or leaflets about Oyster either in the ticket office or in the hallway down to the platforms. Absolutely nothing whatsoever about OEPs. (Oh and the station was closed last week for cable repairs so this is the first operating day with PAYG.) Stratford - continues to be chaotic because the TfL and National Express delineation isn't always clear to Joe Public. The NX machines in the ticket hall don't have Oyster pads so the queues for the TfL machines and window will just get even longer. I looked hard but couldn't find any leaflet about Oyster on National Rail on either the TfL or NX racks. So far two stations, including one of the main ones in East London, and zero information. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Rupert Candy wrote: Just a quick live update from this morning: From a short journey today: Forest Gate - poster up telling us we can now use PAYG on national rail. No Oyster pad has been added to the one ticket machine at the station (even though it has a circle that is clearly intended for one) or at the ticket office window and there were no posters or leaflets about Oyster either in the ticket office or in the hallway down to the platforms. Absolutely nothing whatsoever about OEPs. (Oh and the station was closed last week for cable repairs so this is the first operating day with PAYG.) Stratford - continues to be chaotic because the TfL and National Express delineation isn't always clear to Joe Public. The NX machines in the ticket hall don't have Oyster pads so the queues for the TfL machines and window will just get even longer. I looked hard but couldn't find any leaflet about Oyster on National Rail on either the TfL or NX racks. So far two stations, including one of the main ones in East London, and zero information. Shepherds Bush (Central) had a Using Oyster on National Rail Tfl-produced leaflet dated 2nd Jan. It has the same wording as the website plus a fold-out of the new Oyster Rail Services map (+ zones). -- Current nearest station: Victoria |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
asdf wrote
They'd only become redundant if the stations were also staffed while open, since the barriers would have to be left open while the station is unstaffed, which at many stations is most or all of the time. Depends. Thus some stations have a CCTV equiped Help Point, where the remote operator can release the barrier gate for you (after looking at your, perhaps paper, ticket). Example Walton-on-Thames (SWT, outside zones) down platform exit, though curent practice is just to leave the barrier bypass gate open. -- Mike D |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
I tried one of the ticket machines at Euston main line today and it
didn't have an OEP option on there but it's certainly very easy to do on an Underground ticket machine so I did that this afternoon at Cannon Street and I touched out no problem at Charlton and it charged me the correct fare of £1.40. On my way back though I was going to Greenwich and the Oyster readers on the platform which gives step free interchange to the DLR were both out of service so I had to go downstairs to find one. I think if these OEPs are going to work then there's going to have to be some publicity (strategically placed posters etc.) as I know very few Oyster Travelcard holders who know anything about them. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
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Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 4 Jan, 11:01, Rupert Candy wrote:
MIG wrote: Presumably it only ever registered that it was valid at the point where touched. *That's all they seem to do elsewhere. Just a quick live update from this morning: - Oyster pad not yet active on ticket machine at Bromley North (and software not yet updated). Just as well I didn't need an OEP. - Oyster reader by entrance had 'Out of use' sticker but gave me a green light and 'Enter' anyway (with a season) - New Waterloo East gateline at the top of the stairs to Waterloo Rd - but main access to station still ungated! - Touched out at new standalone readers on the Waterloo footbridge. Big new overhead sign 'Card users touch here'. So clearly not all parts of the network were quite ready for 2nd Jan... -- Current nearest station: The Southwark exit at Waterloo East now has a National Rail gateline as well as the TfL gateline. There is a small area between the two with TfL and Southeastern self service machines, creating a strange "landside" area with no exit other than via a gateline. The Southeasten machine can top up PAYG, but I couldn't see any provision for OEPs. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Neil Williams wrote:
...and would open any barrier in London zones 1-3, but if an inspector came around to check then a PF would be due if the appropriate Oyster was not being carried (not touched in). Thus there would be no need to touch in at all, and the problem would go away. How would you solve the other problem of people with season ticket travelcards starting journeys outside London? e.g. if I go to stay the night in Surrey, I cannot get an overnight return extension - I have to buy the ticket on the day. So I'll get one to the first station inside the zones but do I then have to jump off at that station, touch on a pad and then waste time at a remote outpost waiting for the next train? |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Paul Terry wrote:
So the interesting legal point - can a TOC legally enforce a penalty fare if it can be shown that the correct ticket was not available to passengers at the starting station? Probably not (or at least the PF can be appealed against). The DfT make the situation clear he http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legis...policya?page=7 Those rules don't explicitly take into account the nuances of the machines not being able to issue all reasonable tickets. The touch screen machines can generally handle any turn up & go fare, and the old button machines usually had every single direct station and reasonable interchange on them, with permit to travel machines covering some of the gaps, but nowadays a lot of machines aren't But with OEPs rapidly becoming available on automatic ticket machines across London, it would probably be necessary to establish that the ticket machine was broken and there was no other one available nearby. Yes but as stated elsewhere on the thread there are a number of stations and operators who don't have the Oyster pads on the machines - National Express doesn't have them at Forest Gate or Stratford; Barking (which operator?) didn't have them before Christmas. Okay Stratford has TfL machines as well but the others, particularly Forest Gate which has only one machine and isn't staffed in late evenings, don't. I'm not sure the presence of nearby newsagents with different opening times who have Oyster facilities would suffice as alternatives. (And also yesterday when in one of the ones here I asked for reference if I could get an "Oyster Extension Permit" there and the man at the till looked at me blankly so I said that it seemed to only be available at stations. So a further question is whether passengers can be held responsible if they can't get the product because somewhere along the line the information has not reached the till staff.) So the scenario is not the deliberate or accidental dodger being caught unaware but rather the conscientious passenger who is unable to get the OEP because it's not easily available and certainly not at the station where they're beginning their journey. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On 5 Jan, 14:24, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: ...and would open any barrier in London zones 1-3, but if an inspector came around to check then a PF would be due if the appropriate Oyster was not being carried (not touched in). *Thus there would be no need to touch in at all, and the problem would go away. How would you solve the other problem of people with season ticket travelcards starting journeys outside London? e.g. if I go to stay the night in Surrey, I cannot get an overnight return extension - I have to buy the ticket on the day. So I'll get one to the first station inside the zones but do I then have to jump off at that station, touch on a pad and then waste time at a remote outpost waiting for the next train? Yes, and it's perfectly acceptable to have to do that, just as it previously was on LU when you had travelcards from NR. |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Paul Terry wrote: So the interesting legal point - can a TOC legally enforce a penalty fare if it can be shown that the correct ticket was not available to passengers at the starting station? Probably not (or at least the PF can be appealed against). The DfT make the situation clear he http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legis...policya?page=7 Those rules don't explicitly take into account the nuances of the machines not being able to issue all reasonable tickets. The touch screen machines can generally handle any turn up & go fare, and the old button machines usually had every single direct station and reasonable interchange on them, with permit to travel machines covering some of the gaps, but nowadays a lot of machines aren't But with OEPs rapidly becoming available on automatic ticket machines across London, it would probably be necessary to establish that the ticket machine was broken and there was no other one available nearby. Yes but as stated elsewhere on the thread there are a number of stations and operators who don't have the Oyster pads on the machines - National Express doesn't have them at Forest Gate or Stratford; Barking (which operator?) didn't have them before Christmas. Okay Stratford has TfL machines as well but the others, particularly Forest Gate which has only one machine and isn't staffed in late evenings, don't. I'm not sure the presence of nearby newsagents with different opening times who have Oyster facilities would suffice as alternatives. (And also yesterday when in one of the ones here I asked for reference if I could get an "Oyster Extension Permit" there and the man at the till looked at me blankly so I said that it seemed to only be available at stations. So a further question is whether passengers can be held responsible if they can't get the product because somewhere along the line the information has not reached the till staff.) Just to add to this-the Southeastern machines at Bromley South have now had their Oyster pads enabled. The machines allow top-up and purchase of weekly seasons, but no setting of OEPs. Brilliant work. -- Current nearest station: Peckham Rye |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:24:55 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: ...and would open any barrier in London zones 1-3, but if an inspector came around to check then a PF would be due if the appropriate Oyster was not being carried (not touched in). Thus there would be no need to touch in at all, and the problem would go away. How would you solve the other problem of people with season ticket travelcards starting journeys outside London? e.g. if I go to stay the night in Surrey, I cannot get an overnight return extension - I have to buy the ticket on the day. So I'll get one to the first station inside the zones but do I then have to jump off at that station, touch on a pad and then waste time at a remote outpost waiting for the next train? Do you have a travelcard for any zones? If you do, I would say you are good to stay on the train. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote
How would you solve the other problem of people with season ticket travelcards starting journeys outside London? e.g. if I go to stay the night in Surrey, I cannot get an overnight return extension - I have to buy the ticket on the day. no overnight return (unless you are 35+ miles out perhaps) but http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...asing_tickets/ You can buy Anytime and Off-Peak tickets up to a year in advance, however you'll only be able to buy these over the telephone or at a station ticket office. == So you can buy a BZ6 extension for today and a single for tomorrow (a) before you start or (b) the "ticket for tomorrow"after arrival if the ticket office is open or (c) from the arrival station's ticket machine as a "ticket for tomorrow" after 15:00 -- Mike D |
Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs)
In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes How would you solve the other problem of people with season ticket travelcards starting journeys outside London? e.g. if I go to stay the night in Surrey, I cannot get an overnight return extension - I have to buy the ticket on the day. So I'll get one to the first station inside the zones but do I then have to jump off at that station, touch on a pad and then waste time at a remote outpost waiting for the next train? Assuming we are still talking about OEPs (the subject of the thread), you don't need one for the return journey. If your season is on Oyster, you have PAYG and your Surrey station is within the London zonal system, the Oyster system will work out the correct return fare. -- Paul Terry |
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