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....now that it's been in action a few weeks. I suppose no recent criticism
here is a good sign? Paul S |
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wrote in message ... In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: ...now that it's been in action a few weeks. I suppose no recent criticism here is a good sign? I've not had cause to try it. I noticed one report claiming cross-platform interchange for "round the corner" passengers. That must be a lie of course. I just knew you would be first 'anti' to speak up. Give it a rest FFS... Paul S |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
A hunch on my part suggests service recovery times are a bit shorter than before but that's not based on anything scientific. Sorry Paul, does that mean that you think the service is recovering more quickly? -- We are the Strasbourg. Referendum is futile. |
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On Jan 9, 11:58*pm, wrote:
Why? I and anyone making a similar journey have lost any assurance of a step-free route between King's Cross and Earl's Court with the added nightmare of the dire departures indicators at Edgware Road. However, you have now gained the possibility of doing the same journey, step-free, using the Piccadilly Line. |
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On Jan 9, 8:37*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: ...now that it's been in action a few weeks. I suppose no recent criticism here is a good sign? I was starting to wonder if LU had forgotten its existence - announcements at White City this weekend pointed out that there was no H&C line from Wood Lane, but no mention of the Circle Line... |
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wrote in message ... In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: ...now that it's been in action a few weeks. I suppose no recent criticism here is a good sign? I've not had cause to try it. I noticed one report claiming cross-platform interchange for "round the corner" passengers. That must be a lie of course. I just knew you would be first 'anti' to speak up. Give it a rest FFS... Why? I and anyone making a similar journey have lost any assurance of a step-free route between King's Cross and Earl's Court with the added nightmare of the dire departures indicators at Edgware Road. So you keep saying, and it 's getting tedious in the extreme. As Paul C suggests, once a long period of statistics is available, no doubt they'll be able to prove whether platform allocation at Edgware Rd is reliably happening as shown on the signs. In which case your assurance of a step free route will be there if you get a Circle train. If that means you have to change twice on a journey between Putney and Kings Cross, we know that. We've been hearing about it for about two years now... You've obviously missed the Standard reports of it being even less reliable than before, as well as less frequent. We all know it is less frequent, and we know the reasons. Paul |
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In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: ...now that it's been in action a few weeks. I suppose no recent criticism here is a good sign? I've not had cause to try it. I noticed one report claiming cross-platform interchange for "round the corner" passengers. That must be a lie of course. I just knew you would be first 'anti' to speak up. Give it a rest FFS... Why? I and anyone making a similar journey have lost any assurance of a step-free route between King's Cross and Earl's Court with the added nightmare of the dire departures indicators at Edgware Road. So you keep saying, and it 's getting tedious in the extreme. As Paul C suggests, once a long period of statistics is available, no doubt they'll be able to prove whether platform allocation at Edgware Rd is reliably happening as shown on the signs. In which case your assurance of a step free route will be there if you get a Circle train. If that means you have to change twice on a journey between Putney and Kings Cross, we know that. We've been hearing about it for about two years now... I only read they were promising step free on the Outer Rail, from Earls Court to King's Cross. I read the other direction as no promises at all. An have you ever tried to work out which the next train to High St is going from at Edgware Road? I even got off a train I should have stayed on because I believed a "Next Train to High St" sign on that bloody station! You've obviously missed the Standard reports of it being even less reliable than before, as well as less frequent. We all know it is less frequent, and we know the reasons. I don't know if you've seen the reports in the Standard but what I saw led on reliability falling. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message , at 06:29:39
on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, remarked: However, you have now gained the possibility of doing the same journey, step-free, using the Piccadilly Line. Not if the reason for wanting it step free is because I have my bicycle with me! Won't it fit in the lift? (Although to some extent this simply demonstrates that using a bike on public transport simply doesn't scale) -- Roland Perry |
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Roland Perry wrote on 10 January 2010 14:15:24 ...
In message , at 06:29:39 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, remarked: However, you have now gained the possibility of doing the same journey, step-free, using the Piccadilly Line. Not if the reason for wanting it step free is because I have my bicycle with me! Won't it fit in the lift? (Although to some extent this simply demonstrates that using a bike on public transport simply doesn't scale) Unfolded bikes aren't allowed on tunnelled sections of the deep tube lines. I believe this is because they would impede an evacuation from a train stuck in a tunnel. The leaflet on the "new extended Circle line" says, regarding changing at Edgware Road, "you can avoid the footbridge as cross-platform interchange is available in both directions: eastbound ... between platform 2 (Circle line) and platform 1; westbound ... between platform 4 and platform 3 (District line)." That sounds to me like an assured step-free route. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
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On 10 Jan, 14:41, "Richard J." wrote:
Roland Perry wrote on 10 January 2010 14:15:24 ... In message , at 06:29:39 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, remarked: However, you have now gained the possibility of doing the same journey, step-free, using the Piccadilly Line. Not if the reason for wanting it step free is because I have my bicycle with me! Won't it fit in the lift? (Although to some extent this simply demonstrates that using a bike on public transport simply doesn't scale) Unfolded bikes aren't allowed on tunnelled sections of the deep tube lines. *I believe this is because they would impede an evacuation from a train stuck in a tunnel. The leaflet on the "new extended Circle line" says, regarding changing at Edgware Road, "you can avoid the footbridge as cross-platform interchange is available in both directions: eastbound ... between platform 2 (Circle line) and platform 1; westbound ... between platform 4 and platform 3 (District line)." *That sounds to me like an assured step-free route. There is never a way of assuring that a train won't be signalled into platform 3 at the last minute. Anyway, if it really is running well, I may have to be true to my word and eat my dinner. However, there haven't exactly been any normal weeks since the service was introduced, so let's wait and see. |
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In message , at
14:41:32 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Richard J. remarked: Unfolded bikes aren't allowed on tunnelled sections of the deep tube lines. I believe this is because they would impede an evacuation from a train stuck in a tunnel. Fair enough. The leaflet on the "new extended Circle line" says, regarding changing at Edgware Road, "you can avoid the footbridge as cross-platform interchange is available in both directions: eastbound ... between platform 2 (Circle line) and platform 1; westbound ... between platform 4 and platform 3 (District line)." That sounds to me like an assured step-free route. I suppose that if you ended up on 3 or 4 having terminated from the Kensington direction, you could always catch the next Hammersmith train and reverse at Paddington (island platform iirc). -- Roland Perry |
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On 10 Jan, 16:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:41:32 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Richard J. remarked: Unfolded bikes aren't allowed on tunnelled sections of the deep tube lines. *I believe this is because they would impede an evacuation from a train stuck in a tunnel. Fair enough. The leaflet on the "new extended Circle line" says, regarding changing at Edgware Road, "you can avoid the footbridge as cross-platform interchange is available in both directions: eastbound ... between platform 2 (Circle line) and platform 1; westbound ... between platform 4 and platform 3 (District line)." *That sounds to me like an assured step-free route. I suppose that if you ended up on 3 or 4 having terminated from the Kensington direction, you could always catch the next Hammersmith train and reverse at Paddington (island platform iirc). If you start going that far, there are step-free changes on all routes as long as every line has at least one step-free change to another and enough of them have two. This is probably the case. So, problem solved (at least by the usual definition here) and anyone who finds it inconvenient is an idiot who ought to live somewhere else. |
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:15:24 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: Won't it fit in the lift? (Although to some extent this simply demonstrates that using a bike on public transport simply doesn't scale) In Central London I'd just ride it. Probably quicker than the glacially slow sub-surface lines. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 08:41:28 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote: If you start going that far, there are step-free changes on all routes as long as every line has at least one step-free change to another and enough of them have two. This is probably the case. So, problem solved (at least by the usual definition here) and anyone who finds it inconvenient is an idiot who ought to live somewhere else. That's a bit extreme. The Circle Line had a problem of atrocious punctuality, day in day out. This is an attempt to solve it. What, OOI, would be your suggestion to prevent the situation that occurred before, e.g. half hour gaps in service followed by 4 trains together? People wouldn't like trains sitting at Aldgate for 20 minutes' recovery time (the only other place where it would really make sense to hold them as they're completely out of the way there). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Neil Williams wrote:
What, OOI, would be your suggestion to prevent the situation that occurred before, e.g. half hour gaps in service followed by 4 trains together? Transfer the Hammersmith branch to Crossrail. Failing that, turn it into a GW branch that terminates at Paddington. You will still need recovery waits at Aldgate, but they should be smaller without the delays emanating from Praed Street. tom -- Cthulu saves! (so he can eat you later) |
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In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:45:51 -0600, wrote: I don't know if you've seen the reports in the Standard but what I saw led on reliability falling. Assuming we are referring to the one article in the Standard since the changeover then no it didn't. It led on Ross Lydall having a great big bloody whinge because he got delayed on one journey from the south side of the circle round to Notting Hill Gate. All sorts of problems had arisen that day that caused the Circle to be buggered. That is hardly news nor is it at all relevant to happenings (or not) at Edgware Road. I've had this same article cited on another group where people didn't bother to read it properly. That can't have been the article I saw. I haven't a clue who Ross Lydall might be and certainly don't recall any of those details. I'll also make the partially relevant point that I would not expect the Standard (being based at HSK) to be the most ardent supporters of something their own staff might moan about. It's an easy target. Perhaps we should all have a blog page in the Standard where we can moan about our particular dislikes on the public transport network? I can't disagree with that but it was all I had to go on. I'm less likely to use the Underground to get to Putney now. PAYG on NR is much cheaper for me now off-peak. :-) As I have said let's what for a reliable and objective assessment. If it had been a monumental disaster I am convinced we would have heard a great deal more about the change than we have. I agree that things will become clearer but if they don't do something drastic about the passenger information at Edgware Road I'll find it hard to believe they are trying. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message
, at 08:41:28 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: I suppose that if you ended up on 3 or 4 having terminated from the Kensington direction, you could always catch the next Hammersmith train and reverse at Paddington (island platform iirc). If you start going that far, It's only one stop - and if I had a couple of big suitcases it would be well worth it. there are step-free changes on all routes as long as every line has at least one step-free change to another and enough of them have two. This is probably the case. So, problem solved (at least by the usual definition here) and anyone who finds it inconvenient is an idiot who ought to live somewhere else. That's "extreme stepless", which has a place, but not in this thread. -- Roland Perry |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 08:41:28 on Sun, 10 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: I suppose that if you ended up on 3 or 4 having terminated from the Kensington direction, you could always catch the next Hammersmith train and reverse at Paddington (island platform iirc). If you start going that far, It's only one stop - and if I had a couple of big suitcases it would be well worth it. there are step-free changes on all routes as long as every line has at least one step-free change to another and enough of them have two. This is probably the case. So, problem solved (at least by the usual definition here) and anyone who finds it inconvenient is an idiot who ought to live somewhere else. That's "extreme stepless", which has a place, but not in this thread. -- Roland Perry That's fine, you know the system. Consider a tourist who has never used the Underground before who has arrived at St Pancras (E*) and is going to an hotel in Notting Hill or Kensington. |
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On 10 Jan, 17:37, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 08:41:28 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote: If you start going that far, there are step-free changes on all routes as long as every line has at least one step-free change to another and enough of them have two. *This is probably the case. So, problem solved (at least by the usual definition here) and anyone who finds it inconvenient is an idiot who ought to live somewhere else. That's a bit extreme. *The Circle Line had a problem of atrocious punctuality, day in day out. *This is an attempt to solve it. I was referring to the general attitude of the group whenever anyone faces new inconvenience. A bit throwaway, I admit. What, OOI, would be your suggestion to prevent the situation that occurred before, e.g. half hour gaps in service followed by 4 trains together? *People wouldn't like trains sitting at Aldgate for 20 minutes' recovery time (the only other place where it would really make sense to hold them as they're completely out of the way there). There have been long threads about it where ideas, including mine, have been suggested. Basically, I don't necessarily accept the need for increased frequency on the Hammersmith branch. I think I suggested *running the teacup as now, from Hammersmith to Edgware Road *extending the Wimbleware to Barking *if really necessary, run Hammersmith to Edgware Road shuttle and busy shopping times That would leave nearly all frequencies intact and provide all the interchange opportunities needed. Hammersmith to Whitechapel or beyond is better provided by the District anyway. |
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Graham Harrison wrote on 10
January 2010 21:07:37 ... That's fine, you know the system. Consider a tourist who has never used the Underground before who has arrived at St Pancras (E*) and is going to an hotel in Notting Hill or Kensington. If he's completely ignorant about London, he'll look at the map and see that a change at Edgware Road is needed. No problem. If he's a bit more clued up, he might have heard of the Journey Planner, so he uses it before leaving home and it says "King's Cross St.Pancras Underground Station Take the Circle Line towards Victoria or Hammersmith & City Line towards Baker Street" [to Edgware Road] Hey, wait a minute! The Circle Line doesn't go to Victoria in that direction! In any case, "via Victoria" is a pretty ambiguous indication of direction at KXSP. It's even worse at Edgware Road. There, the hapless tourist is instructed to change to the "Circle Line via Liverpool Street or District Line towards Wimbledon Underground Station". So if there's no Wimbledon train in platform 3, he's likely to go to the other island platform and ask advice about which Circle Line train goes towards Liverpool Street ... Oh, dear. Email to TfL coming up. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
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In message , at 21:07:37 on
Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Graham Harrison remarked: That's fine, you know the system. Consider a tourist who has never used the Underground before who has arrived at St Pancras (E*) and is going to an hotel in Notting Hill or Kensington. Hints and tips like we are exchanging will rarely percolate down to tourists. Nor will they necessarily be expecting step-free travel - the Paris Metro is about as stepFULL as it's possible to be, and then some; for example. And there's something about its layout that seems to require at least one change for most journeys I want to do. -- Roland Perry |
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On Sat, Jan 09, 2010 at 05:58:17PM -0600, wrote:
In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: wrote in message ... I've not had cause to try it. I noticed one report claiming cross-platform interchange for "round the corner" passengers. That must be a lie of course. I just knew you would be first 'anti' to speak up. Give it a rest FFS... Why? I and anyone making a similar journey have lost any assurance of a step-free route between King's Cross and Earl's Court Apart from the Piccadilly line, of course. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Guns aren't the problem. People who deserve to die are the problem. |
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In article i,
Tom Anderson wrote: Transfer the Hammersmith branch to Crossrail. Crossrail platforms are 240m long, IIRC. C-Stock trains are 6 car and are - what, 90m long or so? I'm not sure how expensive it would be to doble the length of all the stations en-route, but my gut feel is "lots". Failing that, turn it into a GW branch that terminates at Paddington. Which would remove a lot of the utility of the line. You will still need recovery waits at Aldgate, but they should be smaller without the delays emanating from Praed Street. True. -- Please help Imogen May keep talking - www.imogenmay.com |
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In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote: On Sat, Jan 09, 2010 at 05:58:17PM -0600, wrote: In article , (Paul Scott) wrote: wrote in message ... I've not had cause to try it. I noticed one report claiming cross-platform interchange for "round the corner" passengers. That must be a lie of course. I just knew you would be first 'anti' to speak up. Give it a rest FFS... Why? I and anyone making a similar journey have lost any assurance of a step-free route between King's Cross and Earl's Court Apart from the Piccadilly line, of course. I must get someone to show me this supposed step-free route to the Piccadilly Line at King's Cross. The current access to the Northern ticket hall from King's Cross main line is not step-free. The only lift from ground level only goes relevantly to the old tube concourse which does not have step-free access to the Piccadilly Line. Anyway, that line is no use with a bike and the accesses involve some lengthy detours, especially at Earl's Court. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:47:27 -0600,
wrote: A simpler solution would be to run a through Circle service at Edgware Road as was done for over 100 years. Which didn't work for over 100 years. There is a very good reason why Circle Line trains are regarded by some as a myth. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:47:27 -0600, wrote: A simpler solution would be to run a through Circle service at Edgware Road as was done for over 100 years. Which didn't work for over 100 years. There is a very good reason why Circle Line trains are regarded by some as a myth. You seem to be applying a very severe test of "didn;t work". It never let me down when I used it, unlike the shambles that is Edgware Road station. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message , at 14:17:52
on Mon, 11 Jan 2010, remarked: I must get someone to show me this supposed step-free route to the Piccadilly Line at King's Cross. Northern ticket hall, lift down to new passageways; short lift down to platforms. (The only access that's not finished yet is the lift down from the old concourse to the Northern Line platforms) The current access to the Northern ticket hall from King's Cross main line is not step-free. There are five that I can think of (are you saying some are out of action temporarily). Working around the complex clockwise: There's a lift just inside the St Pancras extension that goes up to the Kent platforms and down to the passageway to the NTH. There's another lift by the stairs which come out near the KX Suburban platforms. The third lift is by the stairs that give access to the KX mainlaine concourse near the large departure board, and the fourth is out by the main road and leads down to the old concourse, which is then a level passageway all the way to the NTH. The fifth lift is inside the western ticket hall and gives access from road level to the barrier level, which connected by a level passage to the old KX tube concourse. All but the first mentioned are on this diagram I did a year ago, from various plans, before it all opened ... http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-com...with-lifts.jpg (the numbers refer to the kind of lift, not an ordering that they are currently using on the signage - which doesn't include my first lift because it appears to be regarded as a St Pancras mainline lift not a tube station lift): http://www.flickr.com/photos/blech/4147448998/ The only lift from ground level only goes relevantly to the old tube concourse which does not have step-free access to the Piccadilly Line. That's the fourth one in my list above, top half of lift "D". -- Roland Perry |
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On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article i, Tom Anderson wrote: Transfer the Hammersmith branch to Crossrail. Crossrail platforms are 240m long, IIRC. C-Stock trains are 6 car and are - what, 90m long or so? I'm not sure how expensive it would be to doble the length of all the stations en-route, but my gut feel is "lots". More precisely, "****ing masses". Now, 7-car S-stock is, AIUI, going to be able to work the Hammersmith branch without any platform extensions, and those trains are 117.4 m long. Crossrail trains are pairs of five-car units, where i assume each car is the usual 20 metres long, so 200 m. But half a train is 100 m long ... Failing that, turn it into a GW branch that terminates at Paddington. Which would remove a lot of the utility of the line. An argument which failed to save the Circle! tom -- No Hype Just Science |
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On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:55:17 -0600,
wrote: You seem to be applying a very severe test of "didn;t work". It never let me down when I used it, unlike the shambles that is Edgware Road station. Untimetabled 20 to 30 minute gaps in service on a city metro mean it isn't working in any sense. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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On 12 Jan, 17:37, (Neil Williams)
wrote: On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:55:17 -0600, wrote: You seem to be applying a very severe test of "didn;t work". It never let me down when I used it, unlike the shambles that is Edgware Road station. Untimetabled 20 to 30 minute gaps in service on a city metro mean it isn't working in any sense. Neil I agree entirely about the mythical quality of the Circle as it was. Non-existent if I wanted to go, say, Victoria to Aldgate (but always the first thing to turn up if I wanted to go Victoria to Cannon Street). But I can't understand why such unrealistic, not to mention customer- unfriendly, demands on Edgware Road are considered to be a cure not worse than the disease. |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 14:17:52 on Mon, 11 Jan 2010, remarked: I must get someone to show me this supposed step-free route to the Piccadilly Line at King's Cross. Northern ticket hall, lift down to new passageways; short lift down to platforms. (The only access that's not finished yet is the lift down from the old concourse to the Northern Line platforms) The current access to the Northern ticket hall from King's Cross main line is not step-free. There are five that I can think of (are you saying some are out of action temporarily). Working around the complex clockwise: There's a lift just inside the St Pancras extension that goes up to the Kent platforms and down to the passageway to the NTH. There's another lift by the stairs which come out near the KX Suburban platforms. The third lift is by the stairs that give access to the KX mainlaine concourse near the large departure board, and the fourth is out by the main road and leads down to the old concourse, which is then a level passageway all the way to the NTH. The fifth lift is inside the western ticket hall and gives access from road level to the barrier level, which connected by a level passage to the old KX tube concourse. All but the first mentioned are on this diagram I did a year ago, from various plans, before it all opened ... http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-com...with-lifts.jpg (the numbers refer to the kind of lift, not an ordering that they are currently using on the signage - which doesn't include my first lift because it appears to be regarded as a St Pancras mainline lift not a tube station lift): http://www.flickr.com/photos/blech/4147448998/ The only lift from ground level only goes relevantly to the old tube concourse which does not have step-free access to the Piccadilly Line. That's the fourth one in my list above, top half of lift "D". You seem to be assuming that the lifts are all completed. I'm only talking about access from King's Cross concourse which is not yet completed. I can't see any access to the Northern ticket hall from King's Cross which is presently open that is not down steps, apart from the old lift by the front of the station. I don't regard as travel via St Pancras as a credible route. The lift at the front of King's Cross would be a squeeze with a bike, by the way. But I carry my bike up and down stairs. I'd just rather not do so at a station like Edgware Road where the signage is so crap you can't be sure which platform you need. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , ] (Steve
Fitzgerald) wrote: Of course you'll carry your bike all the way down to the DLTs and then some jobsworth (did I say that?) will tell you that you can't carry an unfolded bike down there. DLTs? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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