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Oyster Top-up Queries
I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I
topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"John Salmon" wrote in message
... I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"John Salmon" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge on Oyster cards. Doesn't anyone have anything to say? |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On 19 Jan, 11:54, "John Salmon" wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started usingOysterPAYG on a semi-regular basis. *I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that theOystercard was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. *I have never had any Travelcard loaded on theOystercard, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. *I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? *I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oystercards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. *The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. *Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. *This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. *I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge onOystercards. *Doesn't anyone have anything to say? 1) I have no idea - can you post a screenshot of your journey history? I presume you are viewing your online payg journey history? If not - what are you looking at? 2) The expired Travelcard loading is unlikely. Two questions: - Could you have switched Oyster card with someone else in the last three years? - Are you sure you never bought a 7 day (I vaguely remember having one or two myself but can't remember the details. 3) Online payg journey history is never the place to see your 'current' balance. The card overview page will show the last available reported balance - the only time it will not be correct is if you have made bus journeys that day and the bus has not returned to depot (data needs to be uploaded from bus machine) |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:57:15 -0800 (PST), JS wrote:
the only time it [the oyster payg balance] will not be correct is if you have made bus journeys that day and the bus has not returned to depot (data needs to be uploaded from bus machine) How is the uploading done? Here (Kristiansand) we use ticket machines that are always online via GPRS. Are iBus and the ticket system completely separate? -- jhk |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:15:12 +0100, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
How is the uploading done? I don't know the specifics in this case, but it's often by 802.11 wifi, when the bus drives into the garage, it makes contact with the LAN and downloads it's data. Here (Kristiansand) we use ticket machines that are always online via GPRS. Part of the attraction of a 'smart card' system is that they CAN run off- line - they trust the data in card. (In theory,the Mifare classic Oyster uses has been compromised.) Then they don't have to worry about the effect of a loss of mobile phone signal. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On Jan 19, 11:54*am, "John Salmon" wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. *I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. *I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? *I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? I don't know about parts 1) and 3), but I have seen reports of 'new' Oystercards which are actually second-hand. I suppose it is possible that you acquired an (unregistered?) old Oyster which had a weekly ticket upon it in the past. Once the card was registered, it 'remembered' the old weekly ticket loaded by the previous owner. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"John Salmon" wrote in message ... "John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? There is a difference here of £7.30. I suspect this is the maximum chargable amount for a journey at the time you travelled (Day Travelcard rate), this gets taken off at start of journey and the difference refunded according to the actual length of journey. If you don't touch out you are charged the full rate. HTH, Nick |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"Nick P" wrote in message ... "John Salmon" wrote in message ... (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? There is a difference here of £7.30. I suspect this is the maximum chargable amount for a journey at the time you travelled (Day Travelcard rate), this gets taken off at start of journey and the difference refunded according to the actual length of journey. If you don't touch out you are charged the full rate. According to the fares letter quoted here a couple of times in the past months, the 'normal' amount deducted at the start of a journey (the entry/exit charge) is £6.00 peak and £4.30 off peak, these equate to the TfL/NR through fares for a single zone 1-6 journey. Some NR 'entry charges' can be higher still, as before, but there isn't a £7.30 fare as far as I can tell. £7.30 could be achieved with an offpeak zone 1 tube fare of £3.00, followed by an unresolved offpeak journey, £4.30. There doesn't seem anything to support your suggestion that the 'entry/exit charge' would ever be the same amount as a day travelcard rate. Paul S |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:54:57 -0000, "John Salmon" wrote: "John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge on Oyster cards. Doesn't anyone have anything to say? I looked at your post and I do not understand why any of the outcomes you have outlined could arise. That is why you have not had an answer - I suspect people really do not know the answers. If you have not already tried the Oyster Help Line then I suggest they are your best port of call - they at least have access to the central system and may be able to offer some explanation. Thanks Paul. I'll try the Help Line, but I know from past experience that I'll have to have plenty of time to spare. I'll report back in due course if I learn anything of interest. I should add that I'm not in any way anti-Oyster, but I do want to understand some of the apparently quirky behaviour that I keep encountering. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On 19 Jan, 18:15, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:57:15 -0800 (PST), JS wrote: the only time it [theoysterpayg balance] will not be correct is if you have made bus journeys that day and the bus has not returned to depot (data needs to be uploaded from bus machine) How is the uploading done? Here (Kristiansand) we use ticket machines that are always online via GPRS. Are iBus and the ticket system completely separate? -- jhk Yes, iBus and the ticket system are separate |
Oyster Top-up Queries
"John Salmon" wrote
"Paul Corfield" wrote "John Salmon" wrote: "John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started using Oyster PAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that the Oyster card was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. I have never had any Travelcard loaded on the Oyster card, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without £3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oyster cards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as £3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as £11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge on Oyster cards. Doesn't anyone have anything to say? I looked at your post and I do not understand why any of the outcomes you have outlined could arise. That is why you have not had an answer - I suspect people really do not know the answers. If you have not already tried the Oyster Help Line then I suggest they are your best port of call - they at least have access to the central system and may be able to offer some explanation. Thanks Paul. I'll try the Help Line, but I know from past experience that I'll have to have plenty of time to spare. I'll report back in due course if I learn anything of interest. I should add that I'm not in any way anti-Oyster, but I do want to understand some of the apparently quirky behaviour that I keep encountering. I promised to report back... I haven't yet followed up queries (1) and (2), but (3) has now partially resolved itself - the 'Card Overview' balance and the journey history balance are both now the same. However, I still don't know why the difference was £7.30, but I do know (or at least think) that it's related to an overcharge which has now been refunded (twice!). The first refund was for £9.10 which it was agreed was to be credited to my bank account (I told the helpline that I lived 140 miles away and couldn't be sure when I would next be in London - I'd overlooked a planned trip last Saturday). It related to a journey from London Bridge to Holborn; on touching out I was charged £6.00 instead of being credited £3.10, I think because two separate journeys had apparently been linked via London Bridge OSI (I had been hanging around on the NR platforms looking at trains!) See journey history entries below. The refund should really have been for a further £1.80 as I subsequently reached the daily off-peak cap with my other journeys that day. I decided not to bother about that £1.80, but that is where things took an unexpected twist, which I didn't know about until this morning because I've been behind with reading my emails and I hadn't until then re-checked my journey history. Last Saturday I took a rail trip from Retford to Wool and back (to traverse a rare crossover there). As I was using separate Advance tickets for Retford-King's Cross and Waterloo-Wool, I needed to use Oyster PAYG to travel across London. Unknown to me at the time, I had received an email from TfL in the early hours of that very morning: "Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of £10.90. This is now ready for pick-up at Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines). REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: £10.90" The following day (Sunday) I got this: "Your pay as you go refund for £10.90 has been successfully credited to your Oyster card and can now be used for future journeys. REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: £10.90 Pick-up location: Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines)" So I've now been over-refunded by £9.10, as this latter amount reached my bank two days ago. Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster PAYG whilst staying on the system to remember to keep touching out and back in within the time limits, and perhaps to avoid doing it at OSI locations where journeys might be incorrectly linked. Why isn't the system 'clever' enough to know that the two journeys shown below are separate? Or is there some other explanation for this 'operational issue'? Further comments welcome! The original entries that caused the problem: 16:44 Holborn Exit - £6.00 £-2.19 16:23 London Bridge [London Underground] Entry - £4.90 £3.81 16:21 London Bridge [National Rail] Exit £3.20 £8.71 15:12 Charing Cross [National Rail] Entry - £4.20 £5.51 |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On 21 Jan, 14:04, "John Salmon" wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote "Paul Corfield" wrote "John Salmon" wrote: "John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started usingOysterPAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that theOystercard was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. *I have never had any Travelcard loaded on theOystercard, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. *I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without 3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? *I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oystercards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. *The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as 3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as 11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. *Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. *This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. *I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge onOystercards. *Doesn't anyone have anything to say? I looked at your post and I do not understand why any of the outcomes you have outlined could arise. That is why you have not had an answer - I suspect people really do not know the answers. If you have not already tried theOysterHelp Line then I suggest they are your best port of call - they at least have access to the central system and may be able to offer some explanation. Thanks Paul. I'll try the Help Line, but I know from past experience that I'll have to have plenty of time to spare. *I'll report back in due course if I learn anything of interest. *I should add that I'm not in any way anti-Oyster, but I do want to understand some of the apparently quirky behaviour that I keep encountering. I promised to report back... I haven't yet followed up queries (1) and (2), but (3) has now partially resolved itself - the 'Card Overview' balance and the journey history balance are both now the same. *However, I still don't know why the difference was 7.30, but I do know (or at least think) that it's related to an overcharge which has now been refunded (twice!). *The first refund was for 9.10 which it was agreed was to be credited to my bank account (I told the helpline that I lived 140 miles away and couldn't be sure when I would next be in London - I'd overlooked a planned trip last Saturday). It related to a journey from London Bridge to Holborn; on touching out I was charged 6.00 instead of being credited 3.10, I think because two separate journeys had apparently been linked via London Bridge OSI (I had been hanging around on the NR platforms looking at trains!) *See journey history entries below. The refund should really have been for a further 1.80 as I subsequently reached the daily off-peak cap with my other journeys that day. *I decided not to bother about that 1.80, but that is where things took an unexpected twist, which I didn't know about until this morning because I've been behind with reading my emails and I hadn't until then re-checked my journey history. *Last Saturday I took a rail trip from Retford to Wool and back (to traverse a rare crossover there). *As I was using separate Advance tickets for Retford-King's Cross and Waterloo-Wool, I needed to useOysterPAYG to travel across London. *Unknown to me at the time, I had received an email from TfL in the early hours of that very morning: "Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 10.90. This is now ready for pick-up at Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines). REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: 10.90" The following day (Sunday) I got this: "Your pay as you go refund for 10.90 has been successfully credited to yourOystercard and can now be used for future journeys. REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: 10.90 Pick-up location: Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines)" So I've now been over-refunded by 9.10, as this latter amount reached my bank two days ago. Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts usingOysterPAYG whilst staying on the system to remember to keep touching out and back in within the time limits, and perhaps to avoid doing it at OSI locations where journeys might be incorrectly linked. *Why isn't the system 'clever' enough to know that the two journeys shown below are separate? *Or is there some other explanation for this 'operational issue'? Further comments welcome! The original entries that caused the problem: 16:44 * *Holborn * Exit * *- 6.00 * * * -2.19 16:23 *London Bridge [London Underground] *Entry *- 4.90 * * 3.81 16:21 *London Bridge [National Rail] *Exit * 3.20 * * 8.71 15:12 *Charing Cross [National Rail] *Entry *- 4.20 * * 5.51 Assumin this was a weekday - the journey was treated as one - OSI at London Bridge. It then 'saw' one journey from Charing Cross to Holborn. The maximum journey time for a Z1 only journey is 90 mins (changed on 2 Jan). You exceeded by 2 mins! So you were charged the Peak maximum Oyster fare on exit - £6. The auto refund system clearly picked up the overcharge but is not sophisticated enough to calculate the refund accurately. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On 21 Jan, 14:04, "John Salmon" wrote:
"John Salmon" wrote "Paul Corfield" wrote "John Salmon" wrote: "John Salmon" wrote "John Salmon" wrote I've only recently started usingOysterPAYG on a semi-regular basis. I topped up on Tuesday using the FCC ticket machine next to the ticket office at St Pancras International. I have a couple of queries: (1) The top-up location on my journey history is shown as "Bus". Why would that be? (2) I noticed that the machine showed that theOystercard was loaded with a Zones 1-4 Weekly Travelcard for a specific week in 2007, and it offered me the option of renewing it. *I have never had any Travelcard loaded on theOystercard, indeed I've never used any kind of Weekly Travelcard. *I did wonder whether this situation is in some way related to the fact that this particular card was one I obtained by post (to Retford) during the short period that 'free' (i.e. without 3 deposit) cards were on offer. I can't remember when that was - perhaps 2007? *I think that at that time only cards with a Travelcard loaded were normally issued free, so did TfL load an 'expired' Travelcard on all those free Oystercards? Sorry, one more query: (3) I haven't topped up my card since Tuesday. *The journey history is up-to-date to Wednesday and shows my current balance as 3.91, but the previous page ('Card Overview') shows the balance as 11.21, a figure that doesn't appear anywhere in the journey history. *Can anyone suggest an explanation? [now cross-posted to uk.railway] OK, a day and a half has passed, and not a single reply. *This could mean (a) I've written complete rubbish so you're all ignoring me or (b) you've all killfiled me, or even (c) no-one on utl knows any of the answers. *I *really* find (c) very difficult to believe, as I thought this group (utl) was the fount of all knowledge onOystercards. *Doesn't anyone have anything to say? I looked at your post and I do not understand why any of the outcomes you have outlined could arise. That is why you have not had an answer - I suspect people really do not know the answers. If you have not already tried theOysterHelp Line then I suggest they are your best port of call - they at least have access to the central system and may be able to offer some explanation. Thanks Paul. I'll try the Help Line, but I know from past experience that I'll have to have plenty of time to spare. *I'll report back in due course if I learn anything of interest. *I should add that I'm not in any way anti-Oyster, but I do want to understand some of the apparently quirky behaviour that I keep encountering. I promised to report back... I haven't yet followed up queries (1) and (2), but (3) has now partially resolved itself - the 'Card Overview' balance and the journey history balance are both now the same. *However, I still don't know why the difference was 7.30, but I do know (or at least think) that it's related to an overcharge which has now been refunded (twice!). *The first refund was for 9.10 which it was agreed was to be credited to my bank account (I told the helpline that I lived 140 miles away and couldn't be sure when I would next be in London - I'd overlooked a planned trip last Saturday). It related to a journey from London Bridge to Holborn; on touching out I was charged 6.00 instead of being credited 3.10, I think because two separate journeys had apparently been linked via London Bridge OSI (I had been hanging around on the NR platforms looking at trains!) *See journey history entries below. The refund should really have been for a further 1.80 as I subsequently reached the daily off-peak cap with my other journeys that day. *I decided not to bother about that 1.80, but that is where things took an unexpected twist, which I didn't know about until this morning because I've been behind with reading my emails and I hadn't until then re-checked my journey history. *Last Saturday I took a rail trip from Retford to Wool and back (to traverse a rare crossover there). *As I was using separate Advance tickets for Retford-King's Cross and Waterloo-Wool, I needed to useOysterPAYG to travel across London. *Unknown to me at the time, I had received an email from TfL in the early hours of that very morning: "Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 10.90. This is now ready for pick-up at Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines). REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: 10.90" The following day (Sunday) I got this: "Your pay as you go refund for 10.90 has been successfully credited to yourOystercard and can now be used for future journeys. REFUND DETAILS Reason: Overcharged because of an operational issue Value: 10.90 Pick-up location: Kings Cross (Nthn, Vic, Picc Lines)" So I've now been over-refunded by 9.10, as this latter amount reached my bank two days ago. Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts usingOysterPAYG whilst staying on the system to remember to keep touching out and back in within the time limits, and perhaps to avoid doing it at OSI locations where journeys might be incorrectly linked. *Why isn't the system 'clever' enough to know that the two journeys shown below are separate? *Or is there some other explanation for this 'operational issue'? Further comments welcome! The original entries that caused the problem: 16:44 * *Holborn * Exit * *- 6.00 * * * -2.19 16:23 *London Bridge [London Underground] *Entry *- 4.90 * * 3.81 16:21 *London Bridge [National Rail] *Exit * 3.20 * * 8.71 15:12 *Charing Cross [National Rail] *Entry *- 4.20 * * 5.51 Just re-read and realised you capped (as you wrote). Therfore the auto refund amount was correct (£4.90 plus £6) Not sure why you were refunded £9.10 (by someone at the Oyster helpline?) rather than the £10.90. As you will have gathered - auto refunds do not appear for a while - neither you nor the Oyster helpline can see the auto refund initially |
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"JS" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote The original entries that caused the problem: 16:44 Holborn Exit - 6.00 -2.19 16:23 London Bridge [London Underground] Entry - 4.90 3.81 16:21 London Bridge [National Rail] Exit 3.20 8.71 15:12 Charing Cross [National Rail] Entry - 4.20 5.51 Assumin this was a weekday - the journey was treated as one - OSI at London Bridge. It then 'saw' one journey from Charing Cross to Holborn. The maximum journey time for a Z1 only journey is 90 mins (changed on 2 Jan). You exceeded by 2 mins! So you were charged the Peak maximum Oyster fare on exit - £6. Indeed, that's what I thought. The auto refund system clearly picked up the overcharge but is not sophisticated enough to calculate the refund accurately. I think the 'auto refund' was correct, but before it kicked in I'd already been awarded an incorrect manual refund via the Helpline. What is surprising is that there seems to be nothing in place to prevent or detect such duplicate refunds. |
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"JS" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote: Just re-read and realised you capped (as you wrote). Therfore the auto refund amount was correct (£4.90 plus £6) Not sure why you were refunded £9.10 (by someone at the Oyster helpline?) rather than the £10.90. As you will have gathered - auto refunds do not appear for a while - neither you nor the Oyster helpline can see the auto refund initially Indeed so - my reply to your first message 'crossed' with your second. |
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On 21 Jan, 19:03, "John Salmon" wrote:
"JS" wrote "John Salmon" wrote The original entries that caused the problem: 16:44 Holborn Exit - 6.00 -2.19 16:23 London Bridge [London Underground] Entry - 4.90 3.81 16:21 London Bridge [National Rail] Exit 3.20 8.71 15:12 Charing Cross [National Rail] Entry - 4.20 5.51 Assumin this was a weekday - the journey was treated as one - OSI at London Bridge. *It then 'saw' one journey from Charing Cross to Holborn. |
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Expired Travelcard
I do remember that to issue the card Free ( without a £3 deposit) is was necessary to do a bit of creative loading and at that time a 7 day Travelcard required no deposit, on issue. It would not have been a second hand card on issue to yourself, as cards are never re-issued. I cannot explain the 'Bus' load at St Pancras - but if you e-mail off group with your card number I will investigate. |
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On 21 Jan, 22:14, Hertsman wrote:
Expired Travelcard I do remember that to issue the card Free ( without a £3 deposit) is was necessary to do a bit of creative loading and at that time a 7 day Travelcard required no deposit, on issue. It would not have been a second hand card on issue to yourself, as cards are never re-issued. If cards are never reissued, why return the £3 deposit (although it's very unlikely that it ever would be returned)? Why not just call it buying the card, I wonder? I cannot explain the 'Bus' load at St Pancras - but if you e-mail off group with your card number I will investigate. |
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"John Salmon" wrote in
: Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster PAYG whilst staying on the system ... If you are going snything remotely "odd" the advice would always be to get a paper Travelcard. It's now the same price as a capped Oystercard and avoids so many problems |
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On Jan 22, 10:12*pm, David Jackman replytogroup wrote: "John Salmon" wrote: Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster PAYG whilst staying on the system ... If you are doing anything remotely "odd" the advice would always be to get a paper Travelcard. *It's now the same price as a capped Oystercard and avoids so many problems I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. However I would agree that if people are planning on doing 'odd' things, such as standing around on a station for a long time, or going for a ride there and back without exiting the system at the far end, or backtracking on oneself, or other variants thereof - in other words things that rail enthusiasts are perhaps wont to do - then a paper Day Travelcard would be wise, as it sidesteps any potential issues. Oyster is designed for people making A to B journeys, i.e. getting from one place to another, which is what the (public) transport system is designed for too, after all! |
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"Mizter T" wrote
David Jackman wrote: "John Salmon" wrote: Arising out of this, I would caution railway enthusiasts using Oyster PAYG whilst staying on the system ... If you are doing anything remotely "odd" the advice would always be to get a paper Travelcard. It's now the same price as a capped Oystercard and avoids so many problems I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. However I would agree that if people are planning on doing 'odd' things, such as standing around on a station for a long time, or going for a ride there and back without exiting the system at the far end, or backtracking on oneself, or other variants thereof - in other words things that rail enthusiasts are perhaps wont to do - then a paper Day Travelcard would be wise, as it sidesteps any potential issues. Oyster is designed for people making A to B journeys, i.e. getting from one place to another, which is what the (public) transport system is designed for too, after all! Yes, I'm still an Oyster supporter but I agree with both of you, and following my recent experiences I shall be careful about my choice each time I visit London. |
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"Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. Peter |
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On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration, but they haven't till now. If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be down to legislation, not consideration of the punters. |
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On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration, but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be down to legislation, not consideration of the punters. ??? The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the TOCs sell a ton of them. |
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On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. Both types of One Day Travelcards are protected and not everyone will have an Oystercard. From the ToCs point of view, it would be silly to remove them, as there is always the chance of people not using the full 'value', especially with the peak tickets. |
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On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in January (this was available to buy from all the participating newsagents, plus roadside ticket machines where they exist and also from Tube station ticket offices and machines). However I'm really not so sure the same would happen w.r.t. the Day Travelcard, and certainly not any time soon. Two impediments immediately spring to mind - (1) it's still the case that not many TOC-run ticket offices can deal with Oyster at all, and (2) the existence of the Day Travelcard is protected by statute. In addition I can't see the TOCs pushing for the in-boundary Day Travelcard to go 'all Oyster' (at least not yet), the thinking being what do they have to gain? Plus Oyster can't replace one functional element of conventional paper Day Travelcards in at least one regard - you can't get a boundary zone extensions to cover journeys beyond the zones with Oyster PAYG + capping, as you'd need to touch out (and then back in on the return). Lastly, a point I've made before - if there wasn't a simple easy to buy day pass available for use on public transport across London then there'd be the need to invent one. Perhaps this applies more to the Underground (i.e. a day pass for LU), but since we have the Day Travelcard then that more than fulfils the above function, so it might as well stay. I can however imagine that in future years a capped Oyster card might be marginally cheaper than a Day Travelcard - indeed until January this year the quasi-equivalent caps were 50p cheaper than a Day Travelcard - but that would just be a way of attracting people to use it more, and would of course have to be agreed upon with the TOCs now. |
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On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration, but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be down to legislation, not consideration of the punters. ??? The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the TOCs sell a ton of them. OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given validity on LU, buses etc?). From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. |
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On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote: [snip] Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration, but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be down to legislation, not consideration of the punters. ??? The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the TOCs sell a ton of them. OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given validity on LU, buses etc?). The Travelcard, as well as being protected, is a joint National Rail and TfL product. TfL could not just do away with it unilaterally. From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys, i.e. those within the zones. |
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On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 12:14, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 23, 10:25*am, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 09:34, "Peter Masson" wrote: [snip] Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. It would be nice if TPTB took being able to touch into consideration, but they haven't till now. *If out-boundary ODTCs continue it will be down to legislation, not consideration of the punters. ??? The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the TOCs sell a ton of them. OK; legislation or business benefits (assuming that it would be down to the TOCs to decide that travelcards continued; but would it, given validity on LU, buses etc?). The Travelcard, as well as being protected, is a joint National Rail and TfL product. TfL could not just do away with it unilaterally. From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys, i.e. those within the zones. True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG can't. I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London Terminals. People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their PAYG cap. If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will have any bearing on a decision to retain them. They'll be told that they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they want to take advantage of the Oyster fares. |
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On 23 Jan, 13:33, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 12:32*pm, Andy wrote: On Jan 23, 9:34*am, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote I'm a Londoner, and think Oyster is a fantastic system that I greatly value - the ability to simply be able to head off without having to worry about working out if one would be better off with a Day Travelcard or not is great. Is the in-boundary ODTC likely to survive long, now that Oyster is available on National Rail throughout the zones? Out-boundary ODTCs will presumably have to continue, as it is impossible to touch in an Oyster while you are on a train entering the zones. Both types of One Day Travelcards are protected and not everyone will have an Oystercard. From the ToCs point of view, it would be silly to remove them, as there is always the chance of people not using the full 'value', especially with the peak tickets. Agreed. The point about the peak/ Anytime tickets is interesting, and raises a few thoughts... One of the useful things about Oyster PAYG is being able to make a morning peak journey (one that starts before 09:30), then make several off-peak journeys and benefit from paying the *off-peak cap* plus the *single peak fare* if that's cheaper than the peak cap (which is now exactly the same as the cost of the Anytime Day Travelcard). One thing I have realised is that if one was to make a peak-time journey into a central London terminus on NR - say to Victoria - and then transfer on to LU, then because of the out-of-station interchange (OSI) at Victoria the whole thing is counted as one through journey, and UIVMM one would be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare, even if the LU part of the journey all happened after 09:30. Looking at the fares tables (via London Reconnections [1]), it seems this does leave open the opportunity for people to be charged more than they think they might be w.r.t. single fares. Also, the fact that the journey 'continues' at Victoria might possibly have repercussions if someone had thought they could just pay for a peak NR fare, with all their other journeys falling under the off-peak cap umbrella. OK, this is one possible scenario - Bob makes a peak NR journey from Nunhead (z2) to Victoria (z1) - on it's own this costs £2.10. However Bob then heads onto the Underground to go to Heathrow (he's with his wife who's flying off on business) - when he enters the Tube station the time is *past* 09:30. When he gets to Heathrow I think he'd then be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare from z1 to z6 of £6 - if so, then this would be more expensive than the peak NR z1&2 fare of £2.10 plus the off-peak LU z1-6 fare of £2.40. If Bob then thought he could gallivant all around the whole of London (e.g. visiting friends in Epping *and Purley!) and just pay the off- peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 plus the peak NR fare of £2.10 (i.e. £6.60 total), he might be in for a surprise, as I think he could end up paying for the £6 peak through NR+LU fare, plus the off-peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 (if he'd made enough journeys in the relevant zones of course). If I've got all that right, then Bob's mistake would be to presume that the Nunhead to Victoria NR journey would be treated separately from the Victoria to Heathrow LU journey (and thus he should have ignored his wife and travelled up on the 09:43 train from Nunhead, not the 09:13, because they got to Heathrow airport four hours before the flight anyway!). I suppose I might have got that wrong - but AFAICS given the OSI at Victoria, once on had entered the LU network then the journey would surely be regarded as a continuation of the original journey from Nunhead instead of being two separate journeys. (AIUI, Oyster cannot retrospectively split a previously combined journey into two separate journeys if that would work out cheaper for the punter.) I suppose that in the real world, this isn't something that most people would encounter. It would of course make life easier if there was but one pan-London fare scale that applied to both NR and LU, but alas that would be hard to achieve given the current set up of the TOCs. Bob has to get an off-peak zone 1-6 travelcard at Victoria, as long as they remain available. Sortid. |
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On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:34:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in January A significant difference, however, is that there is an Oyster bus/tram price cap of £3.95, with AFAIK no equivalent of the out-of-boundary tickets valid on buses. So there is no real requirement to have paper and Oyster bus-only passes co-existing because they serve exactly the same purpose. |
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On Jan 23, 2:20*pm, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: The outboundary Day Travelcard will of course continue to exist - the TOCs sell a ton of them. At extraordinarily widely varying prices. I've been having a (non-)correspondence with FCC. I asked them to explain why, when a Cambridge to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is £20 (or £13.20 with railcard) and the Oxford to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return is also £20 (or £13.20 with railcard), the Cambridge Day Travelcard is £26.50 (£17.50 with railcard, a £4.30 addon) while the Oxford one is only £2 (with railcard discount) more than the London Terminals fare. All I got back from First was this waffle: "I have passed your thoughts to our fares Manager, who has replied saying that the Travelcard fare within the Travelcard Area (Zones 1-6) are set by Transport for London in conjunction with all the Train Operators that operate services within the Travelcard Area." Obviously ********. What the letter failed to go on and say was that 'out-boundary Travelcard fares are set by TOCs on the basis of a commercial decision as to how much they can get away with charging (versus their desire to attract traffic)'. Of course there will be a certain amount of money from each out-boundary Travelcard that has to go into the Travelcard pot, for sharing out, but that only accounts for some of it. Re your examples - FGW probably price the Oxford fares in the context of the competing coach services to London, a factor that doesn't exist at Cambridge (NXEA arguably provide a bit of 'competition', but most pax go the fast way via KX and FCC). |
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On Jan 23, 2:03*pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 13:33, Mizter T wrote: [snip] One of the useful things about Oyster PAYG is being able to make a morning peak journey (one that starts before 09:30), then make several off-peak journeys and benefit from paying the *off-peak cap* plus the *single peak fare* if that's cheaper than the peak cap (which is now exactly the same as the cost of the Anytime Day Travelcard). One thing I have realised is that if one was to make a peak-time journey into a central London terminus on NR - say to Victoria - and then transfer on to LU, then because of the out-of-station interchange (OSI) at Victoria the whole thing is counted as one through journey, and UIVMM one would be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare, even if the LU part of the journey all happened after 09:30. Looking at the fares tables (via London Reconnections [1]), it seems this does leave open the opportunity for people to be charged more than they think they might be w.r.t. single fares. Also, the fact that the journey 'continues' at Victoria might possibly have repercussions if someone had thought they could just pay for a peak NR fare, with all their other journeys falling under the off-peak cap umbrella. OK, this is one possible scenario - Bob makes a peak NR journey from Nunhead (z2) to Victoria (z1) - on it's own this costs £2.10. However Bob then heads onto the Underground to go to Heathrow (he's with his wife who's flying off on business) - when he enters the Tube station the time is *past* 09:30. When he gets to Heathrow I think he'd then be charged the *peak* through NR+LU fare from z1 to z6 of £6 - if so, then this would be more expensive than the peak NR z1&2 fare of £2.10 plus the off-peak LU z1-6 fare of £2.40. If Bob then thought he could gallivant all around the whole of London (e.g. visiting friends in Epping *and Purley!) and just pay the off- peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 plus the peak NR fare of £2.10 (i.e. £6.60 total), he might be in for a surprise, as I think he could end up paying for the £6 peak through NR+LU fare, plus the off-peak z1-6 cap of £7.50 (if he'd made enough journeys in the relevant zones of course). If I've got all that right, then Bob's mistake would be to presume that the Nunhead to Victoria NR journey would be treated separately from the Victoria to Heathrow LU journey (and thus he should have ignored his wife and travelled up on the 09:43 train from Nunhead, not the 09:13, because they got to Heathrow airport four hours before the flight anyway!). I suppose I might have got that wrong - but AFAICS given the OSI at Victoria, once on had entered the LU network then the journey would surely be regarded as a continuation of the original journey from Nunhead instead of being two separate journeys. (AIUI, Oyster cannot retrospectively split a previously combined journey into two separate journeys if that would work out cheaper for the punter.) I suppose that in the real world, this isn't something that most people would encounter. It would of course make life easier if there was but one pan-London fare scale that applied to both NR and LU, but alas that would be hard to achieve given the current set up of the TOCs. Bob has to get an off-peak zone 1-6 *travelcard at Victoria, as long as they remain available. *Sortid. Or Bob could use two Oyster cards (and then inevitably get confused as to which is which!). In a sense this issue is not really any different to that which existed pre-Oyster, where if Bob wanted to save a few, er, bob, he would have bought a single from Nunhead to Victoria, then an off-peak z1-6 Day Travelcard at Victoria, instead of buying an expensive z1-6 Peak Day Travelcard at Nunhead. (Of course Peak Day Travelcards, now known as Anytime Day Travelcards, are in and of themselves a relatively recent innovation anyway - though IIRC they do pre-date Oyster). Also, I should stress that in the post above I was putting forward a hypothesis, I can't confirm that it's right. (At least not until I find an opportunity to waste time and money trying it out myself!) |
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On Jan 23, 2:03*pm, Ivor The Engine wrote: On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:34:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: Valid question, one that I've pondered on before. There is some precedence, as the paper one-day Bus Pass was withdrawn by TfL in January A significant difference, however, is that there is an Oyster bus/tram price cap of £3.95, with AFAIK no equivalent of the out-of-boundary tickets valid on buses. *So there is no real requirement to have paper and Oyster bus-only passes co-existing because they serve exactly the same purpose. True - though the cap is £3.90, not £3.95 (regardless, something of an increase over last year's £3.30, but that's another discussion!). |
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On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote: [snip] From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys, i.e. those within the zones. True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG can't. I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London Terminals. Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change at East Croydon. People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they want to take advantage of the Oyster fares. "They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there - there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a regular basis. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
On 23 Jan, 17:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 23, 1:05*pm, MIG wrote: [snip] From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys, i.e. those within the zones. True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG can't. I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London Terminals. Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change at East Croydon. Eh? You'd get a day return including travelcard. The travelcard validity starts at Coulsdon South. An extension from the zones (if you start in London) is similarly from Coulsdon South. If you actually wanted to go there, you could do it by changing at Gatwick and Redhill or by doubling back. I don't know how that affects the available fares. If you had an outboundary travelcard or were extending a season, it wouldn't matter where the trains stopped. People might feel they were paying multiple times if they had to go all the way to London Terminals and back without contributing to their PAYG cap. *If travelcards are retained, there's no problem, and they may well be, but I am doubting whether the effect on such people will have any bearing on a decision to retain them. *They'll be told that they have to get off during both journeys and touch in/out if they want to take advantage of the Oyster fares. "They'll be told..." - you're inventing a bogeyman that isn't there - there hasn't been any serious suggestion that the days of in-boundary Day Travelcards are numbered. If there ever was such a proposal for some reason, then the scenario you describe (Day Travelcard plus Boundary Zone extension fare) would undoubtedly be taken into account in the decision making process - I'm quite sure that this is a ticketing combination that's used by a proportionately small but nonetheless sizeable number of travellers in and around London on a regular basis. The discussion was mainly about day return outboundary travelcards, which it was accepted that they sell lots of. So my person is the one who does a day trip from Brighton to London and travels around a lot in London. If the travelcards weren't retained, you'd have to go to London Terminals before you could realistically start running up your PAYG cap, hence wondering about the difference in day return Brighton to Coulsdon South and the day return Brighton to London terminals. That would be the extra bit you'd be paying that wouldn't count towards the cap. I am quite prepared to believe that the travelcards will be retained, but I'm saying that the reasons for retaining them will be down to legislation, not down to consideration of the people in Sussex who either don't have Oyster cards or wouldn't get the chance to touch in. |
Oyster Top-up Queries
Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:59 pm, MIG wrote: On 23 Jan, 13:46, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 23, 1:05 pm, MIG wrote: [snip] From other postings, it seems that legislation would trump anything else anyway if travelcards are "protected". My point was that, whatever the fare and pricing structure, "it could be inconvenient for people who haven't got Oyster or can't touch during the journey" will absolutely NOT be a consideration in any decision to retain day travelcards or otherwise. Oyster PAYG is essentially for people making in-boundary journeys, i.e. those within the zones. True, as are travelcards, but travelcards can be extended, while PAYG can't. I don't know how two single Oyster fares from Coulsdon South to London Terminals will compare with the difference between a day return Brighton to Coulsdon South and a day return Brighton to London Terminals. Not a great example of whatever you're trying to get at - if you're making a day trip from Brighton to Coulsdon South you don't sensibly go via 'London Terminals' (i.e. Victoria or London Bridge), you change at East Croydon. Brighton-Coulsdon S is priced as via East Croydon, which is why an SDS Brighton-East Croydon is cheaper than an SDS Brighton-Coulsdon S, with no "Direct" version of ticket available until you get as far north as Burgess Hill. /john |
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