On 22 Jan, 20:57, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote



Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Sorry, should have read this first. Yes, it would be awkward, unless
Mizter T's 4 tph happened, and they came in as stoppers and went out
as non-stoppers and vice versa (only 2 tph stopping at Wandsworth
Road).


There is currently one up morning peak long distance train to Victoria which
calls at Denmark Hill en route, and before the December timetable change
there were three, so stops by fast trains here and/or at Peckham Rye are not
out of the question. Indeed, during the period in the 1980s when the SLL
service was peak hours only, and hourly off-peak Victoria - Maidstone East
train called at Denmark Hill (and later, at Peckham Rye as well).

Peter

And as I was saying, the Dovers called at both all day on Sundays
till ... early noughties?

On 22 Jan, 22:21, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:





"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)
* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)

Not ideal in any case though. If a portion of the Up low level line
through Stewart's Lane could be made reversible where it joins the
Chatham Slow, might that work? (I dare say that something like that is
far far easier said than done!)

Sorry, I'm really not keeping up. Two messages behind at all times.
The Battersea Reversible came to mind, but that would interfere with
Southern, so not much help.





There is currently one up morning peak long distance train to Victoria which
calls at Denmark Hill en route, and before the December timetable change
there were three, so stops by fast trains here and/or at Peckham Rye are not
out of the question. Indeed, during the period in the 1980s when the SLL
service was peak hours only, and hourly off-peak Victoria - Maidstone East
train called at Denmark Hill (and later, at Peckham Rye as well).

I think that it's around there (Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye) where a
lot of the opposition and campaigning has been been brewing (though
I'm a bit out of the loop on the latest) - so putting in some extra
stops might address matters somewhat. Though at Denmark Hill I think
the loss of a through service to London Bridge is quite a big part of
it (the almost adjacent King's College Hospital is part of the same
Trust as Guy's Hospital next to London Bridge, and I think this
arrangement manages to generate a certain degree of inter-hospital
traffic of staff, patients and students, and so this is where some of
the noise is coming from).

I think that's true, and can't really be solved. The lack of
crossovers on the route has always struck me, eg Catford to Atlantic.

"MIG" wrote

I think that's true, and can't really be solved. The lack of
crossovers on the route has always struck me, eg Catford to Atlantic.

Until the 1980s Victoria resignalling the Atlantic (South London) line ran
in glorious isolation all the way from Peckham Rye to Battersea Park with no
crossovers at all (and it could not be accessed from the Catford Loop at
Peckham Rye). Then four were put in (described for a journey to Victoria,
though the reverse facility is also available)
Crofton Road Junction (between Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill) : Catford Loop
to Atlantic
Shepherds Lane (between Brixton and Clapham High Street): Chatham to
Atlantic
Voltaire Road (between Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road): Atlantic to
Chatham
Factory (immediately north of Wandsworth Road): Atlantic to Ludgate or
Stewarts Lane.

Peter

On Jan 22, 10:45*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote







Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)
* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)
Not ideal in any case though. If a portion of the Up low level line
through Stewart's Lane could be made reversible where it joins the
Chatham Slow, might that work? (I dare say that something like that is
far far easier said than done!)

I think that it's around there (Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye) where a
lot of the opposition and campaigning has been been brewing (though
I'm a bit out of the loop on the latest) - so putting in some extra
stops might address matters somewhat. Though at Denmark Hill I think
the loss of a through service to London Bridge is quite a big part of
it (the almost adjacent King's College Hospital is part of the same
Trust as Guy's Hospital next to London Bridge, and I think this
arrangement manages to generate a certain degree of inter-hospital
traffic of staff, patients and students, and so this is where some of
the noise is coming from).

The junction between Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road is Voltaire
Road Junction.

IMHO making the up low level line reversible is a non-starter - from Clapham
High Street the Chatham side has effectively produced a 4-track approach to
Victoria, using the low level route as the up slow, and the reversible slow
between Battersea Pier Junction and Voltaire Road as effectively the down
slow. So without significant track and signalling work I don't think serving
Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains is practicable. And I don't think it's
worth keeping Clapham High Street to Victoria trains. Apart from
claustrophobics who want a surface journey at the expense of frequency,
anyone making this journey will do better by LUL from Clapham North via
Stockwell.


If the Victoria trains are to continue to serve Wandsworth Road, then
one solution is to route them via the Up Stewarts Lane line followed
by the Up Chatham Slow heading into Victoria and from Victoria route
them via the Down Brighton slow and Battersea Reversible. Whilst this
will limit the available platforms at Victoria, paths will have been
released on the Down Brighton Slow when the SLL trains stop running.
During the peaks, the Down Stewarts Lane could be used instead of the
Brighton line, with diagrams intermixing with the other inner suburban
services.

Another option would be to resignal the Down Stewarts Lane line to be
reversible and to run the service to / from the platform 1 side at
Victoria (similar to what was planned for one of the many Battersea
Power Station projects).

The reduction from 4tph to 2tph between Victoria, Denmark Hill, and Peckham
Rye might seem a retrograde step, but in practice the SLL and Dartford
trains mostly run very close to each other, followed by a near 30 minute gap
to the next pair. Ideally this is a flow that should be provided with the
(ex-) Mayor of London's aim for at least a 15 minute clockface service on NR
lines in London, though rather than a new service to Bellingham I'd rather
see the Dartford via Bexleyheath service augmented with a Victoria to Sidcup
service (which can avoid some of the worst conflicts on the flat crossing at
Lewisham, especially if Cannon Street to Sidcup trains are run via Parks
Bridge direct, as they wouldn't need to serve Lewisham).


Timings on the Victoria - Peckham Rye section will have to change
anyway, once the 4tph from the ELL starts; so just because the
Southern and South Eastern trains run close together currently,
doesn't mean that the same slots will be available in the future.

While the loss of through trains between Denmark Hill and London Bridge is
regrettable, passengers making this journey will be able to do it with a
same-platform change (at Peckham Rye or Queens Road Peckham) and will have a
new possibility of travelling to Blackfriars and using the new South Bank
entrance.

Peter

On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:





"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

However, in the (I think very) unlikely event that was to happen, then
there would *have* to be some sort of SLL replacement service (for
example a Vic-Bellingham service) - apart from anything else, Clapham
High Street and Wandsworth Road would otherwise be left without any
service

Surely Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road will be served by the ELL
service to Clapham Junction?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"DW downunder" noname wrote in message
...


Given FCC's track record, I suspect it's more a case of: we'll know when
we see the trains actually running ... and for your further flung
participants: ... and the news filters through. SIGH

Thankfully, it is nothing at all to do with FCC...

Paul S


Perhaps missing my point - the timetable's one thing - what actually happens
is the reality folk have to deal with. The timetable might be a wonderful
political statement, but if it falls apart, what counts is the number of
trains actually run - witness Thameslink of late, and likewise EMT on
weekends. I wasn't suggesting that FCC was to operate the ELLX or other
local services - but I guess that if they fail to deliver SoL, that would
put more load onto the local operators' trains.


DW downunder

On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:
On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

It's true that down services have tended to cross backwards and
forwards, going through CHS platforms, then crossing back again before
Peckham Rye.




* walk to Battersea Park and get a train (though the walk isn't all
that direct as there's all this railway land in the middle! Plus
they're not not the most appealing of streets to walk down.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:
On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:





On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.


The past goes back to the early - mid 1990s, when there were Down
trains sent that way as well as Up. I don't know the last year that
scheduled services used the Down route.

It's true that down services have tended to cross backwards and
forwards, going through CHS platforms, then crossing back again before
Peckham Rye.


Pretty much all the services heading for Nunhead and beyond from
Victoria go via the Atlantic lines, although the Chatham lines (the
northern pair) seem to be busier in recent years.

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Mizter T wrote:

(1) London Bridge won't have space to accommodate [the SLL service] as
it'll have fewer terminating platforms as a result of the station's
redevelopment for the Thameslink Programme and won't have the capacity
to accommodate the SLL service - AIUI much of this redevelopment will
happen in tandem with the construction of the Shard skyscraper, because
the developers have to cough up x amount of money to contribute towards
the redevelopment of LB station. (My understanding is that the space
currently occupied by platforms 14-16 will become part of the Shard
development around the base of the tower.)

Huh. Is there somewhere i can read more about this? Will more platforms be
added to replace them? How?

tom

--
I am become Life, destroyer of worlds