"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
rth.li...
On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Mizter T wrote:

(1) London Bridge won't have space to accommodate [the SLL service] as
it'll have fewer terminating platforms as a result of the station's
redevelopment for the Thameslink Programme and won't have the capacity to
accommodate the SLL service - AIUI much of this redevelopment will happen
in tandem with the construction of the Shard skyscraper, because the
developers have to cough up x amount of money to contribute towards the
redevelopment of LB station. (My understanding is that the space
currently occupied by platforms 14-16 will become part of the Shard
development around the base of the tower.)

Huh. Is there somewhere i can read more about this? Will more platforms be
added to replace them? How?

London Bridge currently has 15 platforms and a through line
3 platforms on Cannon Street lines
3 platforms and a through line for Charing Cross and Thameslink trains
9 terminal platforms for Southern.

Until the 1970s the through line did not exist, but there were 15 terminal
platforms. Some were lost in creating the through line, and, IIRC later in
extending the through platforms for 12 car trains, and others were lost in
providing space for the new signalbox.

The Thameslink proposals are for 9 through platforms and 6 terminal
platforms
3 platforms for Cannon Street trains
2 platforms for Thameslink
4 platforms for Charing Cross trains

Some trains which currently use the terminal platforms will run via
Thameslink. AIUI it's not yet clear how much of the layout will be available
during the construction period.

Peter

"DW downunder" noname wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"DW downunder" noname wrote in message
...


Given FCC's track record, I suspect it's more a case of: we'll know when
we see the trains actually running ... and for your further flung
participants: ... and the news filters through. SIGH

Thankfully, it is nothing at all to do with FCC...

Paul S


Perhaps missing my point - the timetable's one thing - what actually
happens is the reality folk have to deal with.

Ah, understood

Paul S

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
news
Some trains which currently use the terminal platforms will run via
Thameslink. AIUI it's not yet clear how much of the layout will be
available during the construction period.

It gets discussed to a certain extent in yesterday's finalised Kent RUS.
There will be times when groups of through platforms will be completey out
of use and the relevant trains will pass straight through, but I only had a
quick glance.

Paul S

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
rth.li...
On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Mizter T wrote:

(1) London Bridge won't have space to accommodate [the SLL service] as
it'll have fewer terminating platforms as a result of the station's
redevelopment for the Thameslink Programme and won't have the capacity to
accommodate the SLL service - AIUI much of this redevelopment will happen
in tandem with the construction of the Shard skyscraper, because the
developers have to cough up x amount of money to contribute towards the
redevelopment of LB station. (My understanding is that the space
currently occupied by platforms 14-16 will become part of the Shard
development around the base of the tower.)

Huh. Is there somewhere i can read more about this? Will more platforms be
added to replace them? How?

The before and after drawings (part of the Thameslink [1] enquiry) for
London Bridge station don't show any significant reduction in the current
lengths of 14 -16. If anything, it is the other remaining terminating
platforms (equivalent to 11 - 13) that will be shortened to roughly where
the current footbridge is.

However the eventual 6 terminating platforms (10 - 15 when renumbered), will
be 3 twin track bays - the most southern platform will be against the
building wall, in other words, not facing the wall as now.

Separately, there seem to be proposals that all 6 terminating platforms
should be made 12 car capable - that isn't currently the plan, it looks like
the new P10 is relatively short because of the shape of the throat.

[1] I haven't a current link to them unfortunately...

Paul S

On 23 Jan, 10:50, Andy wrote:
On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:

On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

The past goes back to the early - mid 1990s, when there were Down
trains sent that way as well as Up. I don't know the last year that
scheduled services used the Down route.

You could be right, but withdrawal from the down Stewarts Lane isn't
down to withdrawal of Eurostar is what I meant.

Also, I think it may be earlier than that. I was an immigrant to
south London in about 1989, and I don't remember seeing the down
Stewarts Lane used in the early 1990s. Could just always be there at
the wrong time I suppose ...

My assumption was that Stewarts Lane only really started being used
much after Eurostar started sharing the tracks, the up track adding a
fourth track to the viaduct. Definitely one for Peter Masson.

On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:
[snip]
The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

The Up Stewart's Lane low level route (to Vic) was in regular use by
the Vic-Dartford trains until recently - I think this is more or less
no longer the case, I'm not sure though.

The Down Stewart's Lane low level route (i.e. passing on the
easternmost track next to Battersea Power station) was seemingly
timetabled for use by a couple of later evening Dartford trains (19:16
and 19:46 ring a bell), but I recall reading somewhere (gensheet I
suppose) about folk who were trying to 'score' this track (or whatever
the phrase that's used!) who all seemed to think it never actually
happened, something to do with how a rare set of circumstances where
many planets had to align - an arriving train had to come at just the
right point when a Eurostar was leaving or something like that - and
only then would it happen. I was on a train that went that way once a
few years back - 'twas dark and I was reading a book so I almost
missed it, not that I'm really in the game of trying to 'score' such
track or anything like that though! (Though is interesting and mildly
satisfying to traverse a track that one sees and wonders whether it
ever actually gets used... damn, looks like my secret life of being a
not very committed rare track basher is out!)

On Jan 23, 1:23*pm, MIG wrote:
On 23 Jan, 10:50, Andy wrote:





On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:

On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

The past goes back to the early - mid 1990s, when there were Down
trains sent that way as well as Up. I don't know the last year that
scheduled services used the Down route.

You could be right, but withdrawal from the down Stewarts Lane isn't
down to withdrawal of Eurostar is what I meant.

Also, I think it may be earlier than that. *I was an immigrant to
south London in about 1989, and I don't remember seeing the down
Stewarts Lane used in the early 1990s. *Could just always be there at
the wrong time I suppose ...

I don't think there were many services (just the odd one or two), as
there were recently with the 19.16 and 19.46 Victoria - Dartford
booked that way for several years (with a few other odd trains), at
least until the last timetable change.


My assumption was that Stewarts Lane only really started being used
much after Eurostar started sharing the tracks, the up track adding a
fourth track to the viaduct. *Definitely one for Peter Masson.

I think the up track was used frequently before Eurostar started it is
only recently that services have really been cut back. As you say it
adds the fourth track to the high level route.

On 23 Jan, 14:13, Andy wrote:
On Jan 23, 1:23*pm, MIG wrote:





On 23 Jan, 10:50, Andy wrote:

On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:

On Jan 22, 10:21*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 22, 8:57*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Having thought about it, I'm possibly even warming just a little
(though only a little) to the notion that, given the seemingly
inevitable downfall of the existing SLL service, an enhanced Vic-
Dartford service plus the new ELL phase 2 service might not be such a
bad result, and that the loss of the proposed 'SLL replacement' Vic-
Bellingham service can be taken on the chin (a shame, and it would be
nice to have it, but perhaps not a complete essential). Part of the
problem is the way in which this has all been handled, i.e. in a
rather furtive and underhand manner.

Maybe stops at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye could even be inserted on
a few other trains that currently run fast along the Catford Loop to
and from Victoria?

One problem with using Victoria - Dartford trains to replace the Victoria -
London Bridge SLL service, at least when the Battersea Park junction is
severed, is that there is no route between the Chatham high level lines and
the platforms at Wandsworth Road. It is possible to go via Stewarts Lane,
though the layout at Battersea Pier Junction would complicate platforming at
Victoria (the up low level route feeds into the Up Chatham Slow, so ideally
routed into Victoria platforms 5-8, while the down low level feeds out of
the Down Chatham Fast, so ideally out of platforms 1-4). If Battersea Park
is retained, AIUI Networkers are barred from the route (though it may or may
not take much to clear it for them).

Yes, that's a very good point, I hadn't really thought about that
issue. Hmm. Well, I suppose the brutal solution would be to simply
give up on serving Wandsworth Road with Victoria trains altogether,
and leave it for ELL phase 2 to serve, and tell pax that they can do
one of four things...

* get to Victoria by going to Clapham Jn on the ELL and changing
(though the geographical daftness of that does offend me somewhat)
* get the bus to Vauxhall and then tube (or another bus) to Victoria
* walk to Clapham High Street and catch the train from there (AIUI the
Vic-Dartford trains could serve Clapham HS, as there's a junction the
name of which I forget that provides access to and from the Atlantic
Line)

The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

The past goes back to the early - mid 1990s, when there were Down
trains sent that way as well as Up. I don't know the last year that
scheduled services used the Down route.

You could be right, but withdrawal from the down Stewarts Lane isn't
down to withdrawal of Eurostar is what I meant.

Also, I think it may be earlier than that. *I was an immigrant to
south London in about 1989, and I don't remember seeing the down
Stewarts Lane used in the early 1990s. *Could just always be there at
the wrong time I suppose ...

I don't think there were many services (just the odd one or two), as
there were recently with the 19.16 and 19.46 Victoria - Dartford
booked that way for several years (with a few other odd trains), at
least until the last timetable change.

Mizter T mentioned the same services. I used both of those too many
times to count, and never travelled on the down Stewarts Lane except
that one engineering weekend.

So I had no idea they were meant to. I guess the planets never
aligned.




My assumption was that Stewarts Lane only really started being used
much after Eurostar started sharing the tracks, the up track adding a
fourth track to the viaduct. *Definitely one for Peter Masson.

I think the up track was used frequently before Eurostar started it is
only recently that services have really been cut back. As you say it
adds the fourth track to the high level route.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 23, 10:50*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 23, 10:15*am, MIG wrote:

On 23 Jan, 01:05, Andy wrote:
[snip]
The Victoria - Dartford services actually run through Clapham High
Street platforms much of the time anyway; most switch to / from the
Chatham Reversible at Voltaire Road Junction, although in the past
many have gone via the low level lines. Since the loss of the Eurostar
services, the trains via Stewarts Lane have been reduced to a few Up
peak services.

I think that's pretty much all there ever was, even when Eurostar was
there. *The only time I ever saw the down Stewarts Lane being used was
during engineering works on the viaduct.

The past goes back to the early - mid 1990s, when there were Down
trains sent that way as well as Up. I don't know the last year that
scheduled services used the Down route.

See my reply to MIG - a couple of trains were I believe scheduled to
do this until recently, but apparently hardly ever actually did do so
in reality.


It's true that down services have tended to cross backwards and
forwards, going through CHS platforms, then crossing back again before
Peckham Rye.

Pretty much all the services heading for Nunhead and beyond from
Victoria go via the Atlantic lines, although the Chatham lines (the
northern pair) seem to be busier in recent years.

At weekends the diverted Sevenoaks trains (via Nunhead) that would
otherwise be Blackfriars/ Thameslink services go to and from Victoria
- these seem to use the Chatham lines as opposed to the Atlantic
lines.

See the LDB for Denmark Hill, in particular the platforming -
platforms 1&2 serve the Atlantic lines (the southernmost pair),
platforms 3&4 serve the Chatham lines (the northernmost):
http://realtime.nationalrail.co.uk/ldb/station.aspx?T=DMK

At the moment (i.e. as it's a weekend) the Dartford trains and the SLL
are on the Atlantic lines, the Sevenoaks trains are on the Chatham
lines. I've been there a few times recently-ish when there's been some
appallingly late platform changes, but off the top of my head I can't
remember what the particular scenarios were (I do remember helping
people up and down staircases with bags, and also once blocking the
doorway of a train as the driver shouted at me, the intention being to
hold it to allow an elderly-ish couple to get down the stairs and
board.)

"MIG" wrote

Also, I think it may be earlier than that. I was an immigrant to
south London in about 1989, and I don't remember seeing the down
Stewarts Lane used in the early 1990s. Could just always be there at
the wrong time I suppose ...

My assumption was that Stewarts Lane only really started being used
much after Eurostar started sharing the tracks, the up track adding a
fourth track to the viaduct. Definitely one for Peter Masson.

Until the Victoria resignalling in the 1980s the high level route to
Victoria consisted of two up lines (from Shepherds Lane) and one down line,
with a 4-track approach only from Battersea Pier Junction. The Stewarts Lane
route was never used by passenger trains, unless there was an engineering
blockade or other problem on the high level route. I think people are right
in suggesting that use of the up Stewarts Lane route only began when
Eurostar started, and that use of the down Stewarts Lane route was very
rare - the only time I've used it was when there was a Victoria - Redhill -
Tonbridge service run by South Eastern, which ran from Chatham side,
crossing to the Battersea eversible at Stewarts Lane, and joining the
Brighton Main line at Pouparts Junction. With the Victoria resignalling what
had been the Up Slow on the high level viaduct became a reversible line, and
during the Eurostar era was mainly used as a Down Slow (the up slow being
the Stewarts Lane route).

Peter