solar penguin wrote:

Mizter T wrote:


You could always send some feedback to the Oyster people using the
online form available on the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact
I dare say this is less painful than calling up the helpline, and
perhaps more likely to result in the message getting through to the
right people who could investigate and sort out any problem there may
be with the configuration of this OSI.

Thanks. I'll give it a go.

Well, I've just tried that, but the online form wanted my Oyster
number, real name and contact details. There is no way I am giving
that kind of confidential information to someone who has the power to
track my movement around London!

Call me an old-fashioned idealist if you like, but I'd rather lose my
money than my civil liberties!

Andy wrote:

On Jan 26, 8:32*pm, solar penguin
wrote:
Andy wrote:
Did you touch in the pink interchange validator at
Willesden Junction, when you changed trains, to show that you had
travelled that way?

I didn't even _see_ a pink validator there, never mind touch it. (Mind
you, it's a same-platform interchange, so I just stayed waiting
quietly at one end of the platform instead of wandering around
everywhere looking for validators.)


I'm not sure where the validators are at Willesden Junction, there is
certainly one on the route between the low level and high level
platforms, but I can't recall there is one actually on the high level
platforms themselves (for interchange between the West London Line and
North London Line services).

OK. That would probably explain why I didn't see it.


So start to end journey time was over two hours, which is over the
maximum time allowed for the overall trip from Gipsy Hill - Bruce
Grove (this counts as a journey crossing five zones and has a maximum
time of 110 mins).

How do you make it five zones? (Trying to understand the zonal system
always confuses me, but even if you include zone 1, the journey only
uses three zones (3, 2, and 1) and is only actually _crossing_ two of
them since it begins and ends in 3.


Zone 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, crossing five zones (note that the link shows
crossing upto 18 zones). Remember this is times, not fares and going
from zone 3 to zone 3 via zone 1 will generally take longer than zone
3 to zone 1.


Ok. Thanks. I'll try and remember that.


The old off-peak cheap day returns never had any hidden charges for
time limits. *And although there might've been some route restrictions
in theory, in practice they were never enforced.


And the old cheap day return would have been via the more expensive
zone 1 route and there probably wouldn't have been a cheaper option.

Oh well, that's a shame. But even if there wasn't an "Route: Not
London" option, the nice man in the ticket office would've said so
when I asked for one, so at least I'd know right at the start of the
journey what's involved, instead of trying to make sense of things
afterwards.


**sigh** The more I try to give Oyster a fair chance, the more ways it
finds to annoy me.

"Andy" wrote in message
...

I touched in at Gispy Hill just before 11am. An RPI did an on-train
ticket inspection on the NLL, and he didn't find anything odd with my
Oyster then. I touched out at Hackney Central at 12:33 and was
charged £3.10 for the journey from Gipsy Hill to Hackney Central.
(Which is odd, because I thought a two-zones rail journey should only
be £1.50)


Gipsy Hill - Hackney Central looks like it is calculated as a via zone
1 fare and this price you paid is the same as that given on the TfL
fare finder. Did you touch in the pink interchange validator at
Willesden Junction, when you changed trains, to show that you had
travelled that way?

I walked to Hackney Downs, and touched in about 12:40. I touched out
at Bruce Grove at 13:03 and was charged an extra £1.50 for the
journey
from Hackney Downs to Bruce Grove.


So start to end journey time was over two hours, which is over the
maximum time allowed for the overall trip from Gipsy Hill - Bruce
Grove (this counts as a journey crossing five zones and has a maximum
time of 110 mins). The National Rail journey planner shows this
journey as taking 76-78 mins.

See
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster..._journey_times

What I think happened is when the OP touched in at Hackney Downs, the
system checked the maximum journey time for Gipsy Hill - Hackney Downs.
This is 4 zones/100 minutes. It looks like he had taken just over 100
minutes so the system treated it as a new journey, rather than extending
the old one.

Peter Smyth

On Jan 26, 9:23*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:58:02 -0800 (PST), solar penguin

wrote:

Well Mr Penguin we really need to know the journey details to be able to
take a view. *As others have hinted all sorts of issues may come into
play like max journey time, time taken to interchange etc. *The most
recent details I have seen show those Hackneys to be a valid OSI - it is
a valid interchange / charging route on paper NR tickets so therefore
PAYG has to follow the same rule.
--

I think the simple truth is that the Oyster system hates me as much as
I hate it, and it's deliberately punishing me with the wrong fares...

Not really. *Having looked at your journey info in another post the
system did everything correctly although the Hackney OSI is a tad odd.

There is no "not via Zone 1" for the trip you took. Gipsy Hill - Bruce
Grove or Hackney Central is £3.10. *I think you got tripped up by the
maximum journey time rule which is 110 minutes for a 5 zone travelled
through trip (Zone 3 then 2 then 1 then 2 then 3 for your journey). *The
point at which you interchanged was very close to that parameter and I
think the OSI was probably recorded but on final exit the system went
"well he's validated all the way through but the total journey is in
excess of the max journey time so let's charge £1.50 for Hackney Downs
to Bruce Grove". * That last bit is supposition on my part - I don't
know if the logic is that clever as other examples of exceeding journey
times usually mean two lots of maximum fares being paid.

What your enquiry has thrown up though is the first example I have found
in the Fare Finder of a ELLX routed fare with reference to pink route
validators being at Whitechapel and Canada Water. *If you use the Fare
Finder for Gipsy Hill to Hackney Central you are offered an implied ELLX
routed fare as the Alternative Fare. * Looking at other examples like
West Croydon - Hackney Central or West Croydon - Leyton or Purley -
Canary Wharf they all offer a ELLX routed lower fare which makes sense.


I missed those, however, I don't think they are ELLX fares, but routed
via New Cross Gate, the old ELL and then via Jubilee (change at Canada
Water) or District / Central (change at Whitechapel) to Stratford. An
ELLX fare would surely need 'pink' validation at Dalston. I'm still
not sure if via Shoreditch would count as being via zone 1 or not for
a longer journey like this.

On Jan 26, 9:31*pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...





I touched in at Gispy Hill just before 11am. *An RPI did an on-train
ticket inspection on the NLL, and he didn't find anything odd with my
Oyster then. *I touched out at Hackney Central at 12:33 and was
charged £3.10 for the journey from Gipsy Hill to Hackney Central.
(Which is odd, because I thought a two-zones rail journey should only
be £1.50)

Gipsy Hill - Hackney Central looks like it is calculated as a via zone
1 fare and this price you paid is the same as that given on the TfL
fare finder. Did you touch in the pink interchange validator at
Willesden Junction, when you changed trains, to show that you had
travelled that way?

I walked to Hackney Downs, and touched in about 12:40. *I touched out
at Bruce Grove at 13:03 and was charged an extra £1.50 for the
journey
from Hackney Downs to Bruce Grove.

So start to end journey time was over two hours, which is over the
maximum time allowed for the overall trip from Gipsy Hill - Bruce
Grove (this counts as a journey crossing five zones and has a maximum
time of 110 mins). The National Rail journey planner shows this
journey as taking 76-78 mins.

See
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...aximum_journey...

What I think happened is when the OP touched in at Hackney Downs, the
system checked the maximum journey time for Gipsy Hill - Hackney Downs.
This is 4 zones/100 minutes. It looks like he had taken just over 100
minutes so the system treated it as a new journey, rather than extending
the old one.


I was trying to work out the times but you beat me to it. It would be
interesting to see what would have happened if going to Stamford Hill
took 108 mins, having taken 101 mins to the touch in at Hackney
Downs. (Journey time being six minutes between the stations).

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:23:45 -0800 (PST), martin
wrote:

On Jan 25, 10:50 am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
Because it doesn't always work properly. This is what happened to me over
the weekend;
As I work for LUL I'd got a new PAYG loaded Oyster with 20 quid on it for
use on National Rail.
I thought I'd read somewhere (or possibly just imagined) that LUL
staff passes could now be loaded with a PAYG balance for use where
they're not free. I take it that this isn't the case?

No, not correct. It is impossible to load any Oyster product to a staff
pass. This is similar to the situation where cash cannot be loaded to
Freedom Passes.

If you're ancient like me and have privilege ticket facilities then you
can get a privilege rate PAYG Oyster card for use on NR lines where a
TfL staff pass is not valid. I have one of these but have not yet used
it in anger.

Staff without privilege facilities have to do what Steve D has done and
have a public card for use on NR.

Having two cards throws up all sorts of conundrums about where to
validate and not. Even worse for those of us who also get free travel
on a TOC line as a perk of the job. If I wanted to travel from
Chingford to Liverpool St I'd have to validate at Chingford, rush off
the train at Walthamstow Central to touch out and pay for that bit,
validate my staff pass for entry, get back on the train and then touch
out at the other end. Oh and I need to hold an additional ticket for
the free bit from Walthamstow to Liv St! Needless to say I haven't
tried this yet ;-)

Similar situation for me. I have an annual Priv rate Z123 which LUL
still insist on issuing on a paper ticket. I still need to carry an
Oyster Card for buses. Problem comes to extensions beyond Zone 3 when
the only way is to buy a priv rate paper extension unless I break my
journey the station before the zone boundary and use the priv rate PAYG.

A few years back one central London station ran out of paper tickets
when I came to renew my annual ticket. After a lot of attempts, they
loaded it on to my Oyster Card and somehow I got free bus travel for a
year! Conveniently, it did work for priv rate extensions. When I went to
renew it the following year I got a lecture from the ticket seller at
Turnpike Lane saying it shouldn't have been put on to Oyster!

--
Phil Richards, London, UK
3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at:
http://europeanrail.fotopic.net
http://britishrail.fotopic.net

Paul Scott wrote
Roland Perry wrote:
25 Jan 2010, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

In some case this may involve crossing the street to a station
with a
different name or to a different part of the same rail or
underground
station but in all such cases Oyster must recognise that a jouney
is
not ending but continuing Thus for this purpose the Euston -
Kings
Cross - St Pancras interchange consists of three rail stations and
three underground stations (because of Euston Square) and the
Victoria interchange is two barriered rail stations - Victoria
(Southern) & Victoria (SouthEastern) plus an underground station..

I wouldn't use the Euston/KX example as there are other
complications,
and the three ticket halls at KX doesn't help either. The Victoria
example is sufficient.

Er.. I wouldn't use Euston/KX as an example as it doesn't seem to be
an
OSI...

According to the list that Peter Smyth posted on 09 Dec '09.

Euston (NR) - King's Cross (NR) (40)
Euston (NR) - St Pancras International (NR) (30)
But not
King's Cross St. Pancras Tube (LU)

Which complication /is/ a good reason for not using it as an example.

--
Mike D

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 9:23 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:58:02 -0800 (PST), solar penguin

wrote:

Well Mr Penguin we really need to know the journey details to be able
to
take a view. As others have hinted all sorts of issues may come into
play like max journey time, time taken to interchange etc. The most
recent details I have seen show those Hackneys to be a valid OSI - it
is
a valid interchange / charging route on paper NR tickets so therefore
PAYG has to follow the same rule.
--

I think the simple truth is that the Oyster system hates me as much as
I hate it, and it's deliberately punishing me with the wrong fares...

Not really. Having looked at your journey info in another post the
system did everything correctly although the Hackney OSI is a tad odd.

There is no "not via Zone 1" for the trip you took. Gipsy Hill - Bruce
Grove or Hackney Central is £3.10. I think you got tripped up by the
maximum journey time rule which is 110 minutes for a 5 zone travelled
through trip (Zone 3 then 2 then 1 then 2 then 3 for your journey). The
point at which you interchanged was very close to that parameter and I
think the OSI was probably recorded but on final exit the system went
"well he's validated all the way through but the total journey is in
excess of the max journey time so let's charge £1.50 for Hackney Downs
to Bruce Grove". That last bit is supposition on my part - I don't
know if the logic is that clever as other examples of exceeding journey
times usually mean two lots of maximum fares being paid.

What your enquiry has thrown up though is the first example I have found
in the Fare Finder of a ELLX routed fare with reference to pink route
validators being at Whitechapel and Canada Water. If you use the Fare
Finder for Gipsy Hill to Hackney Central you are offered an implied ELLX
routed fare as the Alternative Fare. Looking at other examples like
West Croydon - Hackney Central or West Croydon - Leyton or Purley -
Canary Wharf they all offer a ELLX routed lower fare which makes sense.


I missed those, however, I don't think they are ELLX fares, but routed
via New Cross Gate, the old ELL and then via Jubilee (change at Canada
Water) or District / Central (change at Whitechapel) to Stratford. An
ELLX fare would surely need 'pink' validation at Dalston. I'm still
not sure if via Shoreditch would count as being via zone 1 or not for
a longer journey like this.

I do think that the one thing this whole thread shows is that the answer to
the OP's original question is "Use paper ODTCs mate, trying to get your head
around Oyster will just give you a headache!" In fact it wouldn't surprise
me to discover that the whole of TFL's Oyster department is run from a
hollowed out volcano lair by a bald bloke with a monocle sitting in a big
leather chair stroking a large fluffy white cat. "...you don't expect me to
talk?" "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to pay £8.60 for a £2.00 fare..." :-)
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

wrote:
In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

Bearing in mind that the original question is from a newbie to the
group, using such terms as OSI in a reply is stupid IMHO

I was answering Roland who is a regular here. The OP seemed to be up to
speed on the risks.

I know an OSI is an 'out of station interchange', but what's an OEP?

Theo

On Jan 27, 6:18*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:

wrote:

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

Bearing in mind that the original question is from a newbie to the
group, using such terms as OSI in a reply is stupid IMHO

I was answering Roland who is a regular here. The OP seemed to be up to
speed on the risks.

I know an OSI is an 'out of station interchange', but what's an OEP?

Oyster Extension Permit - an unwieldy device invented at the behest of
the TOCs - pax who have a *season* Travelcard loaded on their Oyster
card but want to go outside the zones covered by said Travelcard are
supposed to get one before they start their journey.

There's an explanation on this webpage - see under "How to use a
Travelcard and pay as you go together on National Rail":
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

Given that many NR ticket offices and ticket machines can't 'issue'
OEPs on Oyster cards, the whole concept is a bit of a shambles. If I
wanted to make such a journey but couldn't get an OEP first, I
wouldn't have any qualms about going ahead making the journey anyway,
touching-in and out as per normal.

It appears to have been much discussed on utl recently, though I
wasn't around here at the time and haven't (yet) gone back and read
through the relevant thread.