On Jan 26, 1:58*pm, wrote:
In article
,



(DRH) wrote:
On Jan 26, 10:55*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the
need for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators,
pink validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all.*The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a
couple of short single journeys with an interchange outside the
gateline into one?
Are you saying why bother, just charge a day travelcard rate
anyway?

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or *buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). * As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

That's what PAYG does much more conveniently for the vast majority, pay
for single journeys without queuing up for tickets all the time. I almost
never travel enough by tube these days to need a ODTC, even at the
discounted rate I get one combined with an off-Peak Day Return from
Cambridge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

An alternative model can achieve that goal by offering different
consumer benefit trade-offs (as with paper tickets elsewhere):
PAYG without capping (simple stored value ticketing)
Benefit - convenience
Cost - no discount on 'quantity' purchase (but if making only a few
journeys, do people expect that?)

plus

ODTC on Oyster
Benefit - convenience, travel flexibility , simplicity (as current
paper ticket)
Cost - higher upfront cost; risk of not being 'value for money' if you
don't make enough journeys

The relative attractiveness of each option can be varied by a simple
mechanism - price. At present, this heavily skewed in favour of
PAYG.

The underlying benefit for TfL would be elimination of the PAYG
infrastructure and associated costs.

DRH

On 26 Jan, 14:27, DRH wrote:
On Jan 26, 1:58*pm, wrote:





In article
,

(DRH) wrote:
On Jan 26, 10:55*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
DRH wrote:
Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the
need for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators,
pink validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all.*The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed..

If you get rid of all those things how will the system combine a
couple of short single journeys with an interchange outside the
gateline into one?
Are you saying why bother, just charge a day travelcard rate
anyway?

A value judgement: either pay two single fares (if these are the only
journeys you make in a day) or *buy a ODTC (if you are making
several). * As in most fare systems, there is an element of inequality
which can only be avoided/reduced by immensely complex systems like
PAYG.

That's what PAYG does much more conveniently for the vast majority, pay
for single journeys without queuing up for tickets all the time. I almost
never travel enough by tube these days to need a ODTC, even at the
discounted rate I get one combined with an off-Peak Day Return from
Cambridge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

An alternative model can achieve that goal by offering different
consumer benefit trade-offs (as with paper tickets elsewhere):
PAYG without capping (simple stored value ticketing)
Benefit - convenience
Cost - no discount on 'quantity' purchase (but if making only a *few
journeys, do people expect that?)

plus

ODTC on Oyster
Benefit - convenience, travel flexibility , simplicity (as current
paper ticket)
Cost - higher upfront cost; risk of not being 'value for money' if you
don't make enough journeys

The relative attractiveness of each option can be varied by a simple
mechanism - price. *At present, this heavily skewed in favour of
PAYG.

The underlying benefit for TfL would be elimination of the PAYG
infrastructure and associated costs.

DRH

The trouble is that the attractiveness to the punter isn't the main
consideration (if it's a consideration at all).

There was very strong determination to introduce Oyster and PAYG,
despite the popularity of travelcards (day and season), as evidenced
by the penalty cash fares for people not using it and the attempts to
claim that it was the new travelcard (and getting done by Advertising
Standards).

The clamour for PAYG to be accepted on NR was more to do with ending
the inconvenience of a newly-introduced non-interavailability. If
Oyster hadn't existed on LU, people would be pretty much satisfied
with travelcards, which are still far more interavailable than Oyster
PAYG (look at OEPs for gawdsake, and the differential fares).

So Oyster PAYG is not going to be abandoned for any reason. One has
to recognise that there is a very strong motivation behind it, even if
we can only conject what it might be (more income, better data, alien
lifeforce infiltration, whatever).

That's why I was surprised at the reaction to my fairly innocuous
suggestion to increase general Oyster takeup by putting a popular
product on it (ie the day travelcard).

Even when you don't time out at an OSI, Oyster can still get them
wrong and overcharge you! (Why am I not surprised!?!)

According to London Reconnections, Hackney Central/Hackney Downs is
supposed to be an OSI. But when I used it this morning, I got charged
for two different journeys: one going to Hackney Central, and another
one starting at Hackney Downs.

Any idea what could've caused this? (Apart from the usual problems of
whole Oyster fares concept being seriously flawed, of course!)

solar penguin wrote:
Even when you don't time out at an OSI, Oyster can still get them
wrong and overcharge you! (Why am I not surprised!?!)

According to London Reconnections, Hackney Central/Hackney Downs is
supposed to be an OSI. But when I used it this morning, I got charged
for two different journeys: one going to Hackney Central, and another
one starting at Hackney Downs.

Any idea what could've caused this? (Apart from the usual problems of
whole Oyster fares concept being seriously flawed, of course!)

Well they do say that the reason TfL don't publish the list is that it keeps
changing. Maybe it was set up temporarily for engineering works, maybe you
took too long.

My guess is as good as yours, as they sometimes say...

Paul S

On Jan 26, 3:25*pm, solar penguin
wrote:

Even when you don't time out at an OSI, Oyster can still get them
wrong and overcharge you! (Why am I not surprised!?!)

According to London Reconnections, Hackney Central/Hackney Downs is
supposed to be an OSI. But when I used it this morning, I got charged
for two different journeys: one going to Hackney Central, and another
one starting at Hackney Downs.

Any idea what could've caused this? *(Apart from the usual problems of
whole Oyster fares concept being seriously flawed, of course!)

Interesting. When I've used the Hackney Central/Downs OSI in the past
it's worked fine, but I haven't used it this year yet.

I'm tempted to ask for your journey details, but it shouldn't really
make any difference whatever they were, unless I'm overlooking
something.

You could always send some feedback to the Oyster people using the
online form available on the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact
I dare say this is less painful than calling up the helpline, and
perhaps more likely to result in the message getting through to the
right people who could investigate and sort out any problem there may
be with the configuration of this OSI.

On 26 Jan, 10:14, DRH wrote:
X-No-Archive

On Jan 26, 7:45*am, MIG wrote:



On 25 Jan, 17:41, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 25, 4:37*pm, "John Salmon" wrote:

"MIG" wrote

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. *It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system.
Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the
punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. *Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it
(esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day
Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by
offering it on Oyster, especially now.

(MIG used to call for this in the days before PAYG was accepted on NR,
but didn't ever seem to want to acknowledge just how confusing a
situation this would have created - factor in PAYG being available for
tickets extensions on the Tube but not most NR lines and it would have
just been totally daft. And if it ever had been available then the
impetus to actually get NR to accept PAYG would have been diminished -
that was the big prize that has finally been achieved, much to the
immense gratitude of travellers in London. I honestly can't believe
he's still bringing this suggestion up now, it's *totally* daft.)

Honestly, I think this needs a bit of explaining. *Why does it always
have to be give with one hand and take with the other?

The travelcard is probably the best and most revolutionary thing that
ever happened to transport usage in London. *It gave total
interavailability.

One slight downside was that you might not know for sure if you were
going to make enough journeys to make it worthwhile. *So *a "nice to
have" is a ticketing product that allows punters to build up
individual journeys to a maximum. *People were not crying out for
this, but one can see the advantage.

But no one ever ever ever called for day travelcards to be got rid
of. *There's no point having the icing on the cake if the price is
losing the cake.

Nor did they call for cash single fares to be hiked by over 100% or
for returns to be abolished.

What people want is stress-free transport, with interavailability,
minimal queueing and best value.

It is claimed that Oyster PAYG offfers this, but it's rather twisting
the truth to claim that therefore people want Oyster. *If it doesn't
deliever those Good Things, then what people want is something that
does. *That's still the travelcard in most situations.

The motives for introducing Oyster are very much to do with cash flow
and so on, not purely the convenience of the punter. *If there are
motives for getting Oyster into people's pockets, surely putting such
a popular product on it would be a way of doing that?

I entirely agree.

Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the need
for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators, pink
validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. *The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

Another driving force in PAYG is of course, the suppliers of the IT
kit that supports it all. *The simple ODTC concept could be supported
by magcard technology. PAYG must require enormous computing resource
to apply an ever-increasing panoply of 'rules'.

As in many other cities/towns, here and abroad, if you are setting out
for a day's travel, making a value judgement between a "day rover" of
some sort, or paying individual fares, is almost always a no-brainer.
The day rover usually pays for itself after a few journeys and offers
a further benefit - convenience. The risk - that you might pay more
than if you paid individual journeys is slight, especially with TfL-
style high cash fares.

The mistake made with PAYG is to assume that cost is the only benefit
consumers seek. It isn't. *Many will happily trade cost off against
convenience (and a stress-free journey). *Which is what the ODTC
gives.

The big question is whether anyone at TfL is bold enough to point out
the emperor's lack of clothes, and call for PAYG to be scrapped before
it gets even more complex.

DRH

TfL's next plans for ticketing are to move to an account based
scheme, where fares and capping would be calculated at the back office
level rather than at the gate / validator.

This would also make it possible for Mastercard Paypass / Visa Wave
cards and NFC mobile phones to be used.

see http://www.lafabriquedelacite.com/fabrique-de-la-cite/data/8384123E801FB916C125747A005C5D1C/$File/fabrique-4d-ticketing.pdf

In message
,
solar penguin writes

Even when you don't time out at an OSI, Oyster can still get them
wrong and overcharge you! (Why am I not surprised!?!)

According to London Reconnections, Hackney Central/Hackney Downs is
supposed to be an OSI. But when I used it this morning, I got charged
for two different journeys: one going to Hackney Central, and another
one starting at Hackney Downs.

Any idea what could've caused this? (Apart from the usual problems of
whole Oyster fares concept being seriously flawed, of course!)

Did you take more than 20 minutes between touching out at Hackney
Central and touching in at Hackney Downs?
--
Paul Terry

On Jan 26, 4:07*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 26 Jan, 10:14, DRH wrote:



X-No-Archive

On Jan 26, 7:45*am, MIG wrote:

On 25 Jan, 17:41, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 25, 4:37*pm, "John Salmon" wrote:

"MIG" wrote

And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day
travelcards on Oyster anyway. *It's extra money up front, and the punter
still buys into the Oyster system.
Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved
journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the
punter use it as such thereafter.

That sounds like a very good idea. *Is there any technical reason why it
can't be done?

Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it
(esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day
Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by
offering it on Oyster, especially now.

(MIG used to call for this in the days before PAYG was accepted on NR,
but didn't ever seem to want to acknowledge just how confusing a
situation this would have created - factor in PAYG being available for
tickets extensions on the Tube but not most NR lines and it would have
just been totally daft. And if it ever had been available then the
impetus to actually get NR to accept PAYG would have been diminished -
that was the big prize that has finally been achieved, much to the
immense gratitude of travellers in London. I honestly can't believe
he's still bringing this suggestion up now, it's *totally* daft.)

Honestly, I think this needs a bit of explaining. *Why does it always
have to be give with one hand and take with the other?

The travelcard is probably the best and most revolutionary thing that
ever happened to transport usage in London. *It gave total
interavailability.

One slight downside was that you might not know for sure if you were
going to make enough journeys to make it worthwhile. *So *a "nice to
have" is a ticketing product that allows punters to build up
individual journeys to a maximum. *People were not crying out for
this, but one can see the advantage.

But no one ever ever ever called for day travelcards to be got rid
of. *There's no point having the icing on the cake if the price is
losing the cake.

Nor did they call for cash single fares to be hiked by over 100% or
for returns to be abolished.

What people want is stress-free transport, with interavailability,
minimal queueing and best value.

It is claimed that Oyster PAYG offfers this, but it's rather twisting
the truth to claim that therefore people want Oyster. *If it doesn't
deliever those Good Things, then what people want is something that
does. *That's still the travelcard in most situations.

The motives for introducing Oyster are very much to do with cash flow
and so on, not purely the convenience of the punter. *If there are
motives for getting Oyster into people's pockets, surely putting such
a popular product on it would be a way of doing that?

I entirely agree.

Putting the ODTC and in its variants on Oyster would obviate the need
for all/much of the PAYG infrastructure - yellow validators, pink
validators, OSIs, OEPs, Oyster helpline and all. *The system has
become ridiculously complex to the point where even those, like
posters here, with a reasonable understanding of it, can be foxed.

Another driving force in PAYG is of course, the suppliers of the IT
kit that supports it all. *The simple ODTC concept could be supported
by magcard technology. PAYG must require enormous computing resource
to apply an ever-increasing panoply of 'rules'.

As in many other cities/towns, here and abroad, if you are setting out
for a day's travel, making a value judgement between a "day rover" of
some sort, or paying individual fares, is almost always a no-brainer.
The day rover usually pays for itself after a few journeys and offers
a further benefit - convenience. The risk - that you might pay more
than if you paid individual journeys is slight, especially with TfL-
style high cash fares.

The mistake made with PAYG is to assume that cost is the only benefit
consumers seek. It isn't. *Many will happily trade cost off against
convenience (and a stress-free journey). *Which is what the ODTC
gives.

The big question is whether anyone at TfL is bold enough to point out
the emperor's lack of clothes, and call for PAYG to be scrapped before
it gets even more complex.

DRH

TfL's *next plans for ticketing are to move to an account based
scheme, where fares and capping would be calculated at the back office
level rather than at the gate / validator.

This would also make it possible for Mastercard Paypass / Visa Wave
cards and NFC mobile phones to be used.

seehttp://www.lafabriquedelacite.com/fabrique-de-la-cite/data/8384123E80....

Thanks. A useful post.

Aspirations and benefits (to TfL) seem clear. It's the way they're
implementing the steps towards 'a better customer experience' that
seem less certain.

DRH

Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
solar penguin writes

Even when you don't time out at an OSI, Oyster can still get them
wrong and overcharge you! (Why am I not surprised!?!)

According to London Reconnections, Hackney Central/Hackney Downs is
supposed to be an OSI. But when I used it this morning, I got charged
for two different journeys: one going to Hackney Central, and another
one starting at Hackney Downs.

Any idea what could've caused this? (Apart from the usual problems of
whole Oyster fares concept being seriously flawed, of course!)

Did you take more than 20 minutes between touching out at Hackney
Central and touching in at Hackney Downs?

No, it took me under eight minutes.

Well Mr Penguin we really need to know the journey details to be able to
take a view. As others have hinted all sorts of issues may come into
play like max journey time, time taken to interchange etc. The most
recent details I have seen show those Hackneys to be a valid OSI - it is
a valid interchange / charging route on paper NR tickets so therefore
PAYG has to follow the same rule.
--

I think the simple truth is that the Oyster system hates me as much as
I hate it, and it's deliberately punishing me with the wrong fares...