Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:07:33 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

If someone could produce what is involved precisely then that would
be interesting.

Reports I have seen are that it involved leaking all sorts of
personal information, which was then undoubtedly put onto a
computer.

Wrong. I have returned several unregistered PAYG cards - including
those of acquaintances who have 'surrendered' them to me when leaving
the country (as in "I don't need this, you have it"). At the time the
maximum refundable balance was £5, so I used the card(s) to get the
balance below that figure then handed them over at the ticket office
and got the £3 + outstanding balance in cash. No identity required
nor reasons given. A very straightforward and simple process.

AIUI the only reason they won't refund cards topped up by credit card
is that there are issues with the card providers, in a similar way to
most retailers declining to refund cash following a credit card
purchase.

I now advise any colleagues on a short trip to London to purchase an
Oyster card on arrival and hand it back at the station at the end of
their last journey. Most, it must be said, hang on to the card to
save the hassle of buying/returning next time. If they hadn't forked
out 3 quid of their own money to do that then they would end up in the
bin.

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:04:26 +0000 someone who may be Ivor The
Engine wrote this:-

Reports I have seen are that it involved leaking all sorts of
personal information, which was then undoubtedly put onto a
computer.

Wrong.

No, the reports are reports.

I have returned several unregistered PAYG cards - including
those of acquaintances who have 'surrendered' them to me when leaving
the country (as in "I don't need this, you have it"). At the time the
maximum refundable balance was £5, so I used the card(s) to get the
balance below that figure then handed them over at the ticket office
and got the £3 + outstanding balance in cash. No identity required
nor reasons given. A very straightforward and simple process.

You report something different. I am glad to hear it.

Have you done this during a particular time period? It sounds like
it was all some time ago from your report.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:11:57 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

You report something different. I am glad to hear it.

Have you done this during a particular time period? It sounds like
it was all some time ago from your report.

The last time I handed in a card was around August 2008, I think at
Russell Sq station.

I use a PAYG card with auto top-up for my own travels. If Boris
wants to keep tabs on where I go in London, that's fine by me.

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:33:21 +0000 someone who may be Ivor The
Engine wrote this:-

If Boris
wants to keep tabs on where I go in London, that's fine by me.

That's fine by me too. It's your decision.

However, if Boris decides to keep tabs on where others go in London,
without their permission, that is a different matter.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On 3 Feb, 12:02, Graeme wrote:
In message
* * * * * MIG wrote:







On 3 Feb, 11:30, Graeme wrote:
[snip]

If it's a fine, it's a fine for losing the card. *I had one, lost
it, had to buy another one. *I don't expect to get the £3 back, but
I may pay another £3 when I lose this one ...

If you lose your umbrella then you'll have to pay for a new one. *Is
the cost of the umbrella a fine?

Of course not. *It certainly isn't a deposit, which is what I was
saying. It's simply a price.

You said it was a fine for losing the card.

No, I said it was the price. *Then I made a "if it's a fine, it's for
losing the card" comment, the important point being the "losing" not the
"fine". *You've insisted on picking up on that word, which I never used in
the way that a previous poster did.

You persisted in using the word which is why I picked up on it.

I didn't persist. I was referring to someone else's use of it, which
I clearly wasn't expressing agreement with.

It's a bit annoying to know that if you did surrender one, it would
be binned anyway. *I once found someone's registered Oyster and
handed it in, only for it to dawn on me that it was probably going
to be binned without the person who registered it being informed
(at least not before they bought another one).

Why did you think that? *Did you see it binned?

See other response.

Assumption on your part with no evidence, other than paranoia, to back it
up.

Paranoia? *It was annoyance that I'd gone to the trouble to make sure
that someone got their card back, and was given the impression that
this wouldn't be achieved. *I hope I was wrong.

The person you handed it too was probably not in a position to know what
would happen next.

But they were in a position to make sure that something did.

No questions about where I found it, not notes made, no careful
putting in a particular place for action to be taken, no indication
that anything would be done for the person who had registered it, even
when I prompted by saying that I had checked and it was registered. A
total focus on telling me that I wasn't allowed to use it. I don't
know what might have happened, but I am suspicious.

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On 3 Feb, 12:12, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:03*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

Your word is better than the one I used. I'll try and call it a
price in future. It certainly isn't a deposit.

As it is refundable, I fail to see why not.

Neil

Are we talking about the Oyster card now or the umbrella?

Assuming the former, it is beyond doubt that there are physical
opportunities to get the refund. That doesn't mean that there are
many circumstantial opportunities. In reality, the £3 is simply the
price of the card on which one can store credit, like buying a
wallet. Most people will keep it till they lose it (or die, or
exchange it for a freedom pass, as has been pointed out).

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On 3 Feb, 11:48, wrote:
Neil *Williams wrote:

Perhaps people could be encouraged to return them if doing so was
easier? *I don't see why a machine shouldn't be provided to take one
back and return the deposit and outstanding balance. *(Though it's not
totally simple, as I guess a refund of balance paid by credit card
must go back to the credit card).

They don't have to call it a refund, they could just give you
£3 for being lovely and returning it. It's only £3, not £30.

#Paul

The question is whether they actually want them back, or whether they
just want £3 extra from a couple of million people. They have to go
through the motions of taking them back either way.

It has been stated that returned cards are never reissued. I'll have
to search for the thread that that cropped up in.

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Feb 3, 7:56*pm, MIG wrote:

On 3 Feb, 12:12, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 3, 1:03*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

Your word is better than the one I used. I'll try and call it a
price in future. It certainly isn't a deposit.

As it is refundable, I fail to see why not.

Are we talking about the Oyster card now or the umbrella?

Assuming the former, it is beyond doubt that there are physical
opportunities to get the refund. *That doesn't mean that there are
many circumstantial opportunities. *In reality, the £3 is simply the
price of the card on which one can store credit, like buying a
wallet. *Most people will keep it till they lose it (or die, or
exchange it for a freedom pass, as has been pointed out).

But given that it is unquestionably refundable, it can therefore be
legitimately described as a deposit - you have to accept that much,
right, or are you in David Hansen's camp on this one?

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On 3 Feb, 20:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 3, 7:56*pm, MIG wrote:





On 3 Feb, 12:12, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 3, 1:03*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

Your word is better than the one I used. I'll try and call it a
price in future. It certainly isn't a deposit.

As it is refundable, I fail to see why not.

Are we talking about the Oyster card now or the umbrella?

Assuming the former, it is beyond doubt that there are physical
opportunities to get the refund. *That doesn't mean that there are
many circumstantial opportunities. *In reality, the £3 is simply the
price of the card on which one can store credit, like buying a
wallet. *Most people will keep it till they lose it (or die, or
exchange it for a freedom pass, as has been pointed out).

But given that it is unquestionably refundable, it can therefore be
legitimately described as a deposit - you have to accept that much,
right, or are you in David Hansen's camp on this one?

I'd say not so much "legitimately" as "technically" a deposit, in the
same way that Ryanair's booking fees are technically optional.

I think he has a point about it being unnecessarily awkward to get the
deposit (and Neil's idea of a machine was good). However, my issue is
more about how unlikely it is that the circumstances would arise for
most people.

The bottom line is (or will be when there's more history) what
proportion of deposits are actually refunded. Have the operators
budgeted on the assumption that the majority of deposits will be
refunded?

Conflict of Oyster Cards
 

On Feb 3, 8:03*pm, MIG wrote:

On 3 Feb, 11:48, wrote:

Neil *Williams wrote:

Perhaps people could be encouraged to return them if doing so was
easier? *I don't see why a machine shouldn't be provided to take one
back and return the deposit and outstanding balance. *(Though it's not
totally simple, as I guess a refund of balance paid by credit card
must go back to the credit card).

They don't have to call it a refund, they could just give you
£3 for being lovely and returning it. It's only £3, not £30.

The question is whether they actually want them back, or whether they
just want £3 extra from a couple of million people. *They have to go
through the motions of taking them back either way.

It has been stated that returned cards are never reissued. *I'll have
to search for the thread that that cropped up in.

I've still got to reply to your post upthread still (and the other
post about Oyster, and a million and one others too!) but I rather
fear this is a muddling of two separate issues - lost Oyster cards
that have been returned to ticket offices (or wherever), and
*surrendered* Oyster cards returned because the holder didn't want
them any more. In the case of the latter the deposit is returned plus
I think those cards do then get re-issued (dunno what quality control
process there might for for that though).