On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:
[snip]
I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.

And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.

Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

[snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8]

Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.

Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).

I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed

I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously
enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station
and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a
passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they
do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too,
but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the
passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey
from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of
it (Watford Jn).

Note that the conditions of carriage only say you SHOULD touch in and
out with a travelcard on Oyster when you are using it within its
zones. If using it to travel into or out of the zones, the wording
then becomes MUST. The only time penalty fares are mentioned is for
the OEPs needed for traveling beyond the validity (in clause 3.19).
Indeed section 7 says that you won't be charged a penalty fare if
carrying an Oystercard with a valid travelcard season, with no mention
of touching in or out.

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:







On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.

Of course, Watford Junction, along with Bushey and Harrow &
Wealdstone, show some of the stupidity of the OEPs, as you don't need
them if travelling on the London Overground services.

If LO, which is still a National Rail operator even if the concession
is awarded differently, can opt out of the OEPs, is there any reason
why London Midland can't ?

I also wonder what the situation on the ground would be with Chiltern
to / from Amersham, as you may not know in advance whether you'll be
catching a Chiltern or Met line service, especially if changing at
Harrow-on-the-Hill.

On 16 Feb, 18:27, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:







On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

The thing is that whether or not I misunderstood that bit and it was
really 1 - 10, the RPI seemed to think it was valid other than not
having been touched in. Seems to me he should at least have charged
an extension fare if he thought it wasn't.

It wouldn't have been in the punter's interest to get a maximum fare
when touching out, nor was that possibility mentioned. The whole
thing seems very confused.


OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.

And I was delighted to think I had an OEP enforcement story to
report. I wasn't expecting to get into a debate when it turned out
not to be that.

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:





On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Paul Corfield wrote

I note also that the DfT penalise Southern if they do not provide
staffing 95% of the time to keep gates in service. I wonder how they
enforce that bit of the franchise agreement?

Maybe the gate phones home on every change of state or uploads a
summary to the statistics database every day and Southern is required
to pass them on to the DfT ?

More to the point, 95% of what time? I assume Southern has lots of
stations where no trains stops between 1am and 4am, which are closed on
Sundays, with entrances that are not open all the hours that the
station is open etc. I have previously noted that the instructions with
some /Help/ terminals (with CCTV) appear to envisage their being used
to keep gates "supervised" so that a station need not be have a member
of staff on duty adjacent to each gateline.

--
Mike D

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:09:59PM +0000, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

I have previously noted that the instructions with
some /Help/ terminals (with CCTV) appear to envisage their being used
to keep gates "supervised" so that a station need not be have a member
of staff on duty adjacent to each gateline.

I doubt that very much. The gate supervisor is there to make sure
people can get out of the station if the gates break. It's easy to
imagine situations which would break both the gates *and* the help
terminal. Vandalism, for example.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:



On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, that would be
£4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:
On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:



On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, *that would be
£4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:



On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone..
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, *that would be
£4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.
Equally - the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare is deducted when
touching in at a station outside the zones of your Travelcard.
The system has no way of knowing whether you will end your journey
within the zones of the Travelcard.
Your question as to when this started has a long and complicated
answer. Simply put, the 'benefit of the doubt' that was in place
until late last year - whereby the assumed extension fare was deducted
irrespective of a corresponding entry or exit touch at the other end
of the journey - was never advertised.
It was an interim measure until the mixed travel max fare could be
implemented. The main obstacle, obviously, was the lack of Oyster
validators and the majority of NR stations within the LFZ.

On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:
System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

Equally - the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare is deducted when
touching in at a station outside the zones of your Travelcard.
The system has no way of knowing whether you will end your journey
within the zones of the Travelcard.

This is more reasonable, after all it's the start of a normal PAYG
journey and you may as well keep it consistent. IMHO, it should still
deduct the zones you have a Travelcard for though from what it deducts
upon entry though - after all, you've already paid for them.