On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:



On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

Having sufficient payg on your card is not equivalent to a valid
ticket
If you want to use some or all of your payg balance to extend your
journey beyond the zones of your Travelcard (but within the LFZ + G)
on National Rail you can do so, but you must:
- set an OEP
- touch in
You will then pay a mixed travel maximum Oyster fare
You now have a valid ticket for travel beyond the zones of your
Travelcard on National Rail (+G)

The logic is entirely sound

Whether it has been
- advertised enough
- explained to the public
- made practicable by enabling all self-service machines at all
stations
is an entirely different matter
is

On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:





On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

On 22 Feb, 09:56, MIG wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:



On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. *Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

So they'd rather prevent people from paying their fare so that they
can catch them out? *That is only physically possible if they are
touching out.

I remain disgusted by the general attitude of the railways that it's
acceptable to minimise opportunities to pay the correct fares and put
all the resources into catching people out.

How the hell can the railways compete with roads when they criminalise
rail travel in this way? *I **** on them. *I am really f*cking
disgusted with everything that's coming out of the introduction ofOysteron NR. *Too angry to contribute to any more discussion (a great
relief I expect).

I think you are attributing intent where there is none.
A dozen separate companies
Oyster run by a private consortium on TfL's behalf
hundreds of ticketing agreements
millions of daily users
incompetence
Prestige not able to cope with the complexity of fares
etc etc
in the scheme of things though?
not really life and death stuff
:-)

On 22 Feb, 09:56, MIG wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:



On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. *Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

So they'd rather prevent people from paying their fare so that they
can catch them out? *That is only physically possible if they are
touching out.

I remain disgusted by the general attitude of the railways that it's
acceptable to minimise opportunities to pay the correct fares and put
all the resources into catching people out.

How the hell can the railways compete with roads when they criminalise
rail travel in this way? *I **** on them. *I am really f*cking
disgusted with everything that's coming out of the introduction ofOysteron NR. *Too angry to contribute to any more discussion (a great
relief I expect).


Pretty sure the OEP penalty fares will hasten the abandonment of the
whole idea - have faith

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:41:23 -0800 (PST) someone who may be JS
wrote this:-

If you want to use some or all of your payg balance to extend your
journey beyond the zones of your Travelcard (but within the LFZ + G)
on National Rail you can do so, but you must:
- set an OEP
- touch in
You will then pay a mixed travel maximum Oyster fare
You now have a valid ticket for travel beyond the zones of your
Travelcard on National Rail (+G)

The logic is entirely sound

Not in the least.

The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:





On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.

Once you have touched out, you have paid the correct fare and so no
penalty fare can be charged. Touching out usually also means that you
have left the area where a penalty fare can be charged. I would be
interested if you have a real life example of someone being charged a
penalty fare in such circumstances.

Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)
Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

B2003

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:42:17 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.

Trains for which you don't have a valid ticket, unless you buy one.
Which by this delivery system means adding it electronically to your
card. Or. as people with season tickets would do elsewhere in the UK,
going to a station[1] and buying a paper ticket for the part of the
journey not covered.

[1] or online, or on train, etc etc.

On 22 Feb, 11:39, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.


That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

On Feb 22, 11:39*am, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

If one is purely using PAYG, what happens is that an 'entry charge' is
taken when one touches-in, and the appropriate amount is refunded so
the passenger ends up paying for the correct fare.

If one is using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard and intending
to travel outside the zones covered by that Travelcard, *and* one sets
an OEP as is notionally required by the rules [1], then again an
'entry charge' is deducted when one touches-in and the appropriate
amount is refunded when one touches out.

The charge, fine, whatever you want to call it is thus levied
immediately, it's not taken the next day or whenever the next time the
passenger travels.

-----
[1] If one is diligent enough, understands the rules enough, and is
able to actually find somewhere where an OEP can be set.
(And yes I think the whole thing is silly, and if I'm in a situation
where an OEP is supposedly required but nonetheless can't get one
easily I'd happily travel anyway, and happily and politely tell any
inspector I encounter en route to get stuffed should they wish to
issue a PF as a result.)