Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

The current LO network - NLL, WLL and DC line - is all part of the
National Rail network - for example NR ticketing applies.

When the ELL reopens, then the section from Dalston down to New Cross
and NXG will not be part of the National Rail network (it's also not
owned by Network Rail), and the NR double-arrow symbol won't appear
on station totem signs along this stretch.

Ah, so do I take it from that that the NR symbol *has* been retained
at LO stations on the lines you mention?

Where Network Rail is the freeholder of the station, the National Rail
symbol still has primacy, even if only LO trains call there. LU or LO symbol
position then depends on who manages the station, eg it is LU first on many
of the DC line stations.

In my opinion the ELL core stations should still have a National Rail symbol
as well, because as far as members of the public are concerened, you will
catch mainline trains there onto the existing network, (eventually in both
directions). I think that the ownership detail should be subordinated to
practical usefulness...

Paul S

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Feb 20, 12:58*pm, Roy Badami wrote:
* LO is not a franchise (in the

same way as most of the other Train Operating Companies), as TfL takes
the full revenue risk and LOROL has to run the services to TfL's
specifications for a contracted price; *with all the revenue going
back to TfL. When LOROL's contract is over, it will be upto TfL to
award the next concession. As far as ticketing, timetabling etc. is
concerned, LO are still part of the National Rail systems.

But not, it appears, as far as branding goes - unless the example I
cited was a mistake.


But that's a pretty minor point, as you can also see maps, on
Underground trains, where interchange is shown with both NR and LO.
The approach on the train maps generally seems to be that interchange
with LO is a special case, as this is a TfL company and the double
arrow symbol is only definitely used when there is interchange with
another TOC as well. But there doesn't seem to be a consistent rule.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

Mizter T wrote:

No - I said it "won't appear". At least that's what the TfL design
guidelines state. None of the stations are open yet, so I couldn't say
for sure, but there was no-sign of it at Surrey Quays or Rotherhithe
stations when I passed by recently, whilst orange LO roundels were
visible.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You seemed to be contrasting the situation
between Dalston and New Cross with the rest of the LO network, which you
say *is* part of National Rail.

I understand you are saying this section of line will not have any NR
branding, but I was curious as to whether the stations on the NLL, WLL
and DC line have retained the NR logo, or whether it has been removed as
part of the LO rebranding.

-roy

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

In message
, at
04:53:11 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Mizter T remarked:
Is London Overground part of the National Rail,
network, or not?

The observation that triggered the question was seeing, on one of the
maps on board a tube train, a station showing an interchange opportunity
with London Overground, but *not* showing the National Rail symbol
against the station name. *Which would seem to imply not.

Yes. And no. And it depends on what you mean by "National Rail
network" anyway.

How about "trains upon which an all-lines rover are accepted"?
--
Roland Perry

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

Which map, and which station?

I think it was the map of the Victoria line (i.e. the horizontal ones
inside the Victoria line trains). Is that what is meant by 'line diagram'?

I forget which station, I'm afraid.

I can see some logic in the answer elsewhere in this thread that the NR
symbol only appears on those kinds of maps where there is an interchange
opportunity with non-LO trains, but that seems to contradict the
guidance you quote below.


TfL do have policies about what symbols get shown. For signs outside
stations (ones they run, at least), it says [1]:

Where a station is owned by London Underground, but has separate
platforms for London Overground trains

The totem outside the station will lead with an Underground roundel
followed by an Overground roundel and National Rail logo (where the
Overground network is not part of the National Rail network, no National
Rail logo is to be used).

But the rules for line diagram design [2] say:

(always display National Rail logo at Overground stations)

Now, AIUI at the moment there are no bits of the LO network which is not
part of the NR network, so both these rules mean the same thing in
practice, and both disagree with the map you actually saw.

However, if it was a network map rather than a line map, then it
wouldn't really be covered by either, and i can't find the rules for
network maps.

Thanks.

-roy

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

Where Network Rail is the freeholder of the station, the National Rail
symbol still has primacy, even if only LO trains call there. LU or LO symbol
position then depends on who manages the station, eg it is LU first on many
of the DC line stations.

Interesting, thanks. So that would presumably be the case on all of the
current LO network (i.e. excluding the ELL)?

-roy

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

Roland Perry wrote:

How about "trains upon which an all-lines rover are accepted"?

So is the all-lines rover valid on the current LO? Will it be valid on
the ELL extension?

-roy

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

I wrote:

I think it was the map of the Victoria line (i.e. the horizontal ones
inside the Victoria line trains). Is that what is meant by 'line diagram'?

I forget which station, I'm afraid.

I'm guessing it was probably Blackhorse Road, as I recall it was close
to the end of the line. Blackhorse Road appears on the Standard Tube
Map without an NR logo, too.

-roy

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

In message , at
13:59:17 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Roy Badami remarked:
How about "trains upon which an all-lines rover are accepted"?

So is the all-lines rover valid on the current LO? Will it be valid on
the ELL extension?

"The all lines rover is NOT valid for travel on Eurostar, Heathrow
Express, TfL Underground, Docklands Light Railway and Croydon Tramlink,
private railways (except Ffestiniog Railway) or on any shipping
service."

Which is a rather London-Centric view, and perhaps it's not valid on the
Sheffield/Nottingham/Manchester trams either.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/manage...c35ce74100fb0d
e1b9798124/areaMap/All_Line_Rover.pdf
--
Roland Perry

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

The current LO network - NLL, WLL and DC line - is all part of the
National Rail network - for example NR ticketing applies.

When the ELL reopens, then the section from Dalston down to New
Cross
and NXG will not be part of the National Rail network (it's also not
owned by Network Rail), and the NR double-arrow symbol won't appear
on station totem signs along this stretch.

Ah, so do I take it from that that the NR symbol *has* been retained
at LO stations on the lines you mention?

Where Network Rail is the freeholder of the station, the National Rail
symbol still has primacy, even if only LO trains call there. LU or LO
symbol position then depends on who manages the station, eg it is LU
first on many of the DC line stations.

No it doesn't. The Overground symbol is shown before the NR symbol.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...rd-issue02.pdf

Peter Smyth