Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Feb 21, 9:05*am, "Willms" wrote:
Am Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:14:50 UTC, *schrieb Andy *
auf uk.railway :

con ces sion aire *(kn-ssh-n r):

The holder or operator of a concession.

LOROL are the concessionaire of the concession awarded by TfL. DfT
have handed over their role to TfL, LO is a concession rather than a
franchise due to the differing arrangements regarding service levels
and revenue.

* DfT has conceded the exploitation of a part of the railway network
around London to TfL. "The concession" is both the contractual
relationship of the conceding party (DfT) and the concessionaire (TfL)
and also the resource with is object of the concession.


No, there is no consession. DfT have ceded the their role to TfL.

* Paul Corfield mostly describes correctly what a concession is:
namely where the concessionaire bears the commercial risk of
exploiting the resource conceded by the concession and as the
concession (see e.g. the contracts about the Channel Tunnel at the
IGC's website). A mining company may get a concession to exploit a
given mineral resource (including fluid minerals like petroleum).


Check again, that is only one interpretation of concession.

* But then he describes LOROL as the concessionaire, although it is
TfL and not LOROL which bears the commercial risk of exploiting the
concession, and where it is TfL which sets the fares etc etc. LOROL is
the contractor to operate the London Overground network for TfL, but
not the concessionaire.


Try again when you've asked a professor of English about the use of
the word.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Feb 21, 10:32*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:26*am, Roland Perry wrote:





remarked:

"The all lines rover is NOT valid for travel on Eurostar, Heathrow
Express, TfL Underground, Docklands Light Railway and Croydon Tramlink,
private railways (except Ffestiniog Railway) or on any shipping
service."

Which is a rather London-Centric view, and perhaps it's not valid on the
Sheffield/Nottingham/Manchester trams either.

Why do you say that? If a line is not in the exception list the rover is
valid, surely?

a) Are those trams "National Rail lines" [probably not, but then neither
* * *is the Croydon one].
b) Are they on the map [no].

Croydon Tramlink might have a case for inclusion as part of it used to
be a BR/NR line - but that's also the case with Metrolink in
Manchester of course.

If think that the validity is to be read in conjunction with the map.
This has all the valid routes on it, except in the Greater London
area, where much of the detail is missing, hence the list of
exceptions.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

In message
, at
02:32:57 on Sun, 21 Feb 2010, Mizter T remarked:
"The all lines rover is NOT valid for travel on Eurostar, Heathrow
Express, TfL Underground, Docklands Light Railway and Croydon Tramlink,
private railways (except Ffestiniog Railway) or on any shipping
service."

Which is a rather London-Centric view, and perhaps it's not valid on the
Sheffield/Nottingham/Manchester trams either.

Why do you say that? If a line is not in the exception list the rover is
valid, surely?

a) Are those trams "National Rail lines" [probably not, but then neither
* * *is the Croydon one].
b) Are they on the map [no].

Croydon Tramlink might have a case for inclusion as part of it used to
be a BR/NR line - but that's also the case with Metrolink in
Manchester of course.

And also the Nottingham tram (parts use the same trackbed as the "Robin
Hood Line").
--
Roland Perry

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:35:46 +0100, "Willms"
wrote:

No, there is no consession. DfT have ceded the their role to TfL.

Which is the concession. You use yourself the word "cede".

You are wrong in assigning the same meanings to the words. They come
from different Latin roots: concedere, 'to concede' and cedere, 'to
yield'.

The Oxford English Dictionary has four meanings of concession:
n., 1 a thing conceded. 2 a reduction in price for a certain category
of person. 3 the right to use land or other property for a specified
purpose, granted by a government or other controlling body. 4 a
commercial operation set up within the premises of a larger concern.

to cede means to 'give up (power or territory)'. [OED again]

In the context of this discussion, the above statement is correct
(despite the dodgy spelling). DfT have ceded their powers to TfL.
TfL have then granted rights [as concession: meaning 3] under that
power.

I think you should concede[1] now that the native English speakers in
this group do know what they are talking about (some of the time).

[1] v., finally admit or agree that something is true.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Feb 21, 3:35*pm, "Willms" wrote:
Am Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:04:37 UTC, *schrieb Andy *
auf uk.railway :

No, there is no consession. DfT have ceded the their role to TfL.

* Which is the concession. You use yourself the word "cede". And DfT
did not give the "North London Rail Concession" as they call it, as a
gift to TfL, ceding all rights forever, handing over property, but
they ceded only a concession to TfL, to exploit (or use it, if you
think that the former word has something pejorative to it) the
concession for their purposes and (maybe within certain limits) as it
pleases TfL.


Try and remember that English is not the logical language that German
is. The word concession has many possible meanings and you seem to be
homing in on just one of them for your pedantic arguments. All the
franchises could legitimately be called concessions, but that is not
the word that DfT has chosen.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:53:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

TfL seem to regard LO as a kind of metro network - as the LO name
suggests, sort of an overground equivalent to the Underground. And
ultimately TfL are free to show interchanges on in-carriage Tube
diagrams however they please.

I think, ELL excepted, that its closest analogy is Merseyrail - or a
German S-Bahn, which is part of the main national network but
usually[1] not treated as such because of its standalone nature.

[1] DB through ticketing exists onto most or all of the DB-run
S-Bahnen, for instance, though I'd think few will actually use it.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:58:29 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Though I understand that the operator of the Merseyrail Electrics,
Serco-Nedrailways (or is it now Serco-Abellio?), takes the revenue
risk - though I think the PTE may have taken it under the previous
arrangement when the concession (or possibly still a franchise back
then) was in the hands of MTL then Arriva (via a takeover).

Correct. The change to the arrangement was apparently because the old
arrangement didn't give Arriva much incentive to keep fare-dodging
down, nor particularly to promote its services.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 23:38:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Dunno. My guess is that it will be accepted, but not because it has to
be, instead simply because TfL decide it might as well be, given that
it'll be valid on the rest of the LO network

Not an uncommon approach - English national concessionary passes are
accepted on the UCOC X5 from Oxford to Cambridge throughout, even
though I'm not entirely sure that all of it is registered as local bus
routes (though some of it certainly is).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 23:38:33 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Dunno. My guess is that it will be accepted, but not because it has to
be, instead simply because TfL decide it might as well be, given that
it'll be valid on the rest of the LO network

Not an uncommon approach - English national concessionary passes are
accepted on the UCOC X5 from Oxford to Cambridge throughout, even
though I'm not entirely sure that all of it is registered as local bus
routes (though some of it certainly is).

I thought the reason bus passes were accepted all the way now was because
it had all been registered as a stage service. They were only accepted
East of St Neots at one time when that was the only stage bit, or so I
understood.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Is London Overground part of National Rail
 

On Feb 21, 7:51*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:53:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
TfL seem to regard LO as a kind of metro network - as the LO name
suggests, sort of an overground equivalent to the Underground. And
ultimately TfL are free to show interchanges on in-carriage Tube
diagrams however they please.

I think, ELL excepted, that its closest analogy is Merseyrail - or a
German S-Bahn, which is part of the main national network but
usually[1] not treated as such because of its standalone nature.

An S-Bahn of which a portion is also a crucial rail freight route in
the context of the national railway (NLL and WLL). Genuinely curious
as to how many S-Bahns in Germany find themselves in similar positions?