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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
I've recently discovered that it's possible to tack local connections
on front of Advance fares. AIUI, if the train to the advance bit of the journey is delayed, and I miss the connection, then my ticket ought to be honoured on a later service. I mentioned in passing in another thread[1] that I've got a Advance 1st ticket from U12* London to Pollokshields West. The reservation (obviously) only applies to the Euston - Glasgow Central portion of the trip. I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. If, say, I boarded at Queen's Park, and took a London Overground service - then I'd be travelling on a TOC service, and covered by the NRCoC. But what if I got the Underground, in plenty of time, but still got held up? Do the conditions still apply? How about if the ticket specifically started at Queen's Park[2]? I will, of course, be setting off nice and early, but the best laid plans... [1] http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...3bed30e7a6acb8 [2] I'm not actually travelling from there. But I did once buy a saver ticket from Queen's Park (London) to Queen's Park (Glasgow) |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In message
, at 23:57:59 on Sun, 28 Feb 2010, martin remarked: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. If, say, I boarded at Queen's Park, and took a London Overground service - then I'd be travelling on a TOC service, and covered by the NRCoC. But what if I got the Underground, in plenty of time, but still got held up? Do the conditions still apply? How about if the ticket specifically started at Queen's Park[2]? [2] I'm not actually travelling from there. But I did once buy a saver ticket from Queen's Park (London) to Queen's Park (Glasgow) The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in any case. -- Roland Perry |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
On 1 Mar, 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 23:57:59 on Sun, 28 Feb 2010, martin remarked: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. If, say, I boarded at Queen's Park, and took a London Overground service - then I'd be travelling on a TOC service, and covered by the NRCoC. But what if I got the Underground, in plenty of time, but still got held up? Do the conditions still apply? How about if the ticket specifically started at Queen's Park[2]? [2] I'm not actually travelling from there. But I did once buy a saver ticket from Queen's Park (London) to Queen's Park (Glasgow) The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in any case. -- Roland Perry FFS, you need to go to college now to buy a train ticket, WTF is it so complex? |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In message
, at 01:59:38 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, NM remarked: The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in any case. FFS, you need to go to college now to buy a train ticket, WTF is it so complex? Because people apparently want to pay less than the Anytime fare, if they can. And to protect the revenue from walk-up tickets, that means putting some kind of restriction on the cheaper tickets. Restricting them to one ToC, and one named service, is a prime candidate. The problem then, is that some journeys require the use of more than one ToC - so they invent a ticket "with connections" (onto a different ToC) at one or other end. To try to keep things simpler (probably the reason) they don't offer every possible combination of such tickets, so sometimes you'll find that a longer trip such as London to Glasgow can only be done on the major routings like ECML and WCML, rather than also up the Midland mainline and via Sheffield/Leeds etc. (or even more obscure routes). -- Roland Perry |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
NM wrote:
FFS, you need to go to college now to buy a train ticket, WTF is it so complex? Because the system has been "simplified" several times since privatisation. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632903.html (D7018 (Class 35) at Tyseley, 4 Oct 1987) |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
On Mar 1, 9:09*am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 23:57:59 on Sun, 28 Feb 2010, martin remarked: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. If, say, I boarded at Queen's Park, and took a London Overground service - then I'd be travelling on a TOC service, and covered by the NRCoC. But what if I got the Underground, in plenty of time, but still got held up? Do the conditions still apply? How about if the ticket specifically started at Queen's Park[2]? [2] I'm not actually travelling from there. But I did once buy a saver ticket from Queen's Park (London) to Queen's Park (Glasgow) The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in any case. Perhaps I should have mentioned - my ticket is marked Route '+AP Rugby', and Validity 'Bookdtrainonly'; the booked train in question being a VT service from Euston to Glasgow Central. |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 10:49:16 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked: VT sell through Advance tickets with reservations only on their services, e.g. Cambridge to Selly Oak. Huh? Since when did VT have a through service on that route... There's a VWC *and connections* ticket though. The ticket they sell is an Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. You can't buy a Cross-Country Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. XC don't call at Selly Oak, do they? Neither do Virgin Trains! Do keep up, Roland. XC have been making much of how many of their passengers in particular travel on other TOCs trains as well as theirs - and that they run no stations, not even the ones (like between Peterborough and Leicester exclusive) called at by no other TOC. So offering significantly fewer off-network Advance fares than other TOCs is self-defeating, especially where other TOCs are an option, as with Cambridge-Selly Oak. The Cross Country MD recognised when i saw him recently that wasn't too clever. ;-) You have to split the ticketing at New St. Not with Virgin who charge the same fare to Selly Oak as to New St. I should perhaps have mentioned that detail earlier. Virgin's Cambridge - New St Advance fares can be cheaper too, even if you split your XC fares at Leicester which generally reduces the XC fare from £16 to £14 each way. You can get £10 or £11 from Virgin if you pick the right time. Like I said, XC realise this is a bit sub-optimal now. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In message
, at 15:18:53 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, martin remarked: The problem is that the AP ticket for that journey is valid either for VT only (yes, I don't know how you are supposed to do the tails) or "EastCoast and Connections". So you'd be travelling from Kings Cross in any case. Perhaps I should have mentioned - my ticket is marked Route '+AP Rugby', and Validity 'Bookdtrainonly'; the booked train in question being a VT service from Euston to Glasgow Central. Yes, the "AP Rugby" is exactly what Avantix says. But it also says "VT trains only", so how are you supposed to get to Euston (and from Glasgow Central)? Do you have a booking on the local trains at each end? -- Roland Perry |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
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Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
On Mar 2, 8:11*am, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 17:45:21 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked: The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start. I wonder if your opinions are being coloured by experiences on the XC route to Stansted? This used to be run by Central Trains, who only had a very limited number of point-to-point AP fares. Maybe A-XC, having inhertited these, have not embellished them (much or at all). Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously complex *trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg! Curious as to what that was, if you can remember? |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 17:45:21 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked: The problem is lack of consistency. "and connections" covers far more options with Virgin than with Cross Country for a start. I wonder if your opinions are being coloured by experiences on the XC route to Stansted? This used to be run by Central Trains, who only had a very limited number of point-to-point AP fares. Maybe A-XC, having inhertited these, have not embellished them (much or at all). Very much not coloured as far as I'm concerned. It might explain why XC are being inconsistent, perhaps, but Central had through fares to Selly Oak as they ran the Cross-City line in Brum too. XC must have made a conscious decision to drop that validity. Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously complex trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg! Oh, absolutely! A highly commendable can-do attitude. If you look at the difference between a Cambridge-VWC destination advance fare and the equivalent from Euston, Virgin are throwing in Cambridge-London for far less than you can get it any other way. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 18:44:26 on Mon, 1 Mar 2010, remarked: VT sell through Advance tickets with reservations only on their services, e.g. Cambridge to Selly Oak. Huh? Since when did VT have a through service on that route... There's a VWC *and connections* ticket though. The ticket they sell is an Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. You can't buy a Cross-Country Advance from Cambridge to Selly Oak. XC don't call at Selly Oak, do they? Neither do Virgin Trains! Do keep up, Roland. But VT are selling a ticket *and connections*. The XC tickets on the Stnsted-Birminham route seem to be inherited from a small number of point-to-point fares available when it was operated by Central. *Including Cambridge to Selly Oak!* XC have been making much of how many of their passengers in particular travel on other TOCs trains as well as theirs - and that they run no stations, not even the ones (like between Peterborough and Leicester exclusive) called at by no other TOC. EMT has a presence on that line. There's always been one through train a day (via Syston North Curve) and more recently there's a sole Melton Mowbray to London train (via Corby). Oh, right! Like NXEA have trains at Manea or Shippea Hill, I suppose. So offering significantly fewer off-network Advance fares than other TOCs is self-defeating, especially where other TOCs are an option, as with Cambridge-Selly Oak. I think this is an artefact of inheriting the route from Central. Shouldn't be. Central ran the service t Selly Oak too. The Cross Country MD recognised when i saw him recently that wasn't too clever. ;-) You have to split the ticketing at New St. Not with Virgin who charge the same fare to Selly Oak as to New St. I should perhaps have mentioned that detail earlier. I understood that, anyway. VT are selling the "and connection" part, XC aren't. But they do sell "and connection" tickets. It's what most of their passengers need, according to them. Virgin's Cambridge - New St Advance fares can be cheaper too, even if you split your XC fares at Leicester which generally reduces the XC fare from £16 to £14 each way. You can get £10 or £11 from Virgin if you pick the right time. There are direct fares at £6.50 and £8.50 in the fares manual. Maybe they have a very restricted availability? The cheapest I can find with some mystery shopping [1] is £10 (XC). Must be, just as there are lower fares to Leicester I've never seen at times my daughter travels. £2.30 LEI-CBG (with railcard). Best she gets is £3.30, presumably £5 without railcard. I was looking at weekend trips in mid-April, out Friday back Sunday afternoons/evenings when the XC pricing is pretty uniform while Virgin is a bit more varied. I almost bought an XC AP ticket from Stansted to Leicester recently (but chickened out in case the plane was late). That was quoted at a very reasonable £5.50 !! What day of the week and time? That might correspond to the elusive £2.30 fare. Like I said, XC realise this is a bit sub-optimal now. Yes, they should make some effort to import the same policy they inherited from the V-XC lines to the CT lines. Although some would say even that is confusing, because it implies that fare structures change when the franchise changes, and yet many people are resistant to the fares they are familiar with changing. [1] eg 10am departure 29th April. Going back to the CT policy would be a start! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In message
, at 02:22:50 on Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Mizter T remarked: Virgin-XC, on the other hand, seemed to be able to concoct enormously complex *trips (I've had one with four legs) using "connections", even if some of the connecting legs were longer than the VXC leg! Curious as to what that was, if you can remember? Outward Journey: Sunday 15/07/2007 £16.65 VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C ================ departs NOTTINGHAM at 10:18 MIDLAND MAIN LINE to LEICESTER arrives 10:50 departs LEICESTER at 11:15 CENTRAL TRAINS to BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET arrives 12:20 departs BIRMINGHAM at 12:33 VIRGIN TRAINS to READING arrives 14:14 departs READING at 14:32 FST GREAT WESTERN to PLYMOUTH arrives 17:33 Coming back I had to split the ticketing at Gloucester (no cheap through tickets available) Outward Journey: Monday 16/07/2007 £13.00 VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C ================ departs PLYMOUTH at 11:25 VIRGIN TRAINS to BRISTOL TEMPLE MEADS arrives 13:25 departs BRISTOL TM at 13:44 FST GREAT WESTERN to GLOUCESTR arrives 14:32 Outward Journey: Monday 16/07/2007 £15.00 CENTRAL VALUE 1 SINGLE ================ departs GLOUCESTER at 14:46 by CENTRAL TRAINS to NOTTINHAM arrives 17:04 Luckily, all the connections were made OK. But it does demonstrate that the ex-Virgin bits are better value than ex-CT. Booked a month in advance, but I had to force "via Reading" to get the southbound ticket. I experimented with splitting the northbound trip, and eventually ended up with the ticket on the Cardiff-Nottingham CT train (which is now XC like the Stansteds). My business in Plymouth was conducted successfully on Monday morning :) -- Roland Perry |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
On Mar 2, 7:32*am, Roland Perry wrote:
Yes, the "AP Rugby" is exactly what Avantix says. But it also says "VT trains only", so how are you supposed to get to Euston (and from Glasgow Central)? I agree that NFM 05 CD states "Valid on Virgin Trains (TOC Code: IWC) services only." in the text of Restriction VR, for example. But this restriction does not apply because it is not shown on the ticket. Instead, the words printed under "Route" on the ticket are "+ AP RUGBY". The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states: "10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies The validity of a ticket may: a) be restricted to; or b) prohibit travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket." |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In message , at 05:43:29
on Tue, 2 Mar 2010, remarked: I almost bought an XC AP ticket from Stansted to Leicester recently (but chickened out in case the plane was late). That was quoted at a very reasonable £5.50 !! What day of the week and time? That might correspond to the elusive £2.30 fare. Middle of the day on a Wednesday. -- Roland Perry |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 05:43:29 on Tue, 2 Mar 2010, remarked: I almost bought an XC AP ticket from Stansted to Leicester recently (but chickened out in case the plane was late). That was quoted at a very reasonable £5.50 !! What day of the week and time? That might correspond to the elusive £2.30 fare. Middle of the day on a Wednesday. Sounds plausible. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
martin wrote:
I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. I'm curious about a related situation, namely an AP ticket that involves cross-London transfer. If I board the booked (or recommended) train to London but then miss my onward booked connection due to problems with the tube, am I entitled to travel on a later service? -roy |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
"Roy Badami" wrote
martin wrote: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. I'm curious about a related situation, namely an AP ticket that involves cross-London transfer. If I board the booked (or recommended) train to London but then miss my onward booked connection due to problems with the tube, am I entitled to travel on a later service? I had that situation last Saturday, Paddington - Kings Cross. Both the FGW and the EC leg were on booked trains with reservations. Arrival into Paddington was 'only' ten minutes late, but I failed to reach King's Cross in time because of a series of problems. I already knew that the normal H&C/Circle route was closed for engineering, as was the second-choice Bakerloo/Victoria, so I went for the third choice (Bakerloo/Piccadilly) only to find the Bakerloo at a standstill ('signalling problem at Oxford Circus'). I didn't know enough about the bus routes from Padd to Kings Cross, so I walked to Lancaster Gate. Big mistake - I'd forgotten about the planned closure west of Marble Arch. Staff blocking the entrance at Lancaster Gate suggested bus from Paddington! I chose to walk towards Marble Arch - tried to join buses en route but they were all full and not stopping. I eventually got the second train from Marble Arch (first was full) thence via Holborn to Kings Cross, too late for the 1840. Chap in the travel centre listened to my story then issued me with a "Revised travel arrangements" slip, for the 2000 train, endorsed 'late at PAD'. I'm now wondering whether I have a legitimate claim against FGW as their 10-minute delay got me home 80 late - but was it their fault? I had earlier had a similar problem on my outward journey: 0820 from Retford 19 minutes late into Kings Cross, no H&C/Circle, no Victoria Line, Piccadilly train held in platform (passenger under train or some such), arrived Padd 1055 for 1045 train. I was given the third degree ('two systems' allegedly showed my train had been on time at Kings Cross) but I persisted and after much delay the chap phoned KX who apparently said it was 17 late! I said it was 19 minutes but I'd settle for 17, so was given authority to ride on the 1145. Said authority was stapled to my ticket, so I couldn't use the automatic barrier, but I got there! Perhaps I should claim against East Coast. The FGW chap was going to keep both my reservations, but he gave me back the EC one when I said I might claim against EC. On the return journey the EC chap was much more relaxed about it all, and gave me back all three 'coupons' without my asking. 45 minutes is not enough for this transfer when there is engineering work on the Circle, but I suppose programming such stuff into the system is too difficult. So I had the problem twice in one day - the first such occasions ever for me, and I use Advance tickets a lot. |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
On 4 Mar, 21:26, "John Salmon" wrote:
"Roy Badami" wrote martin wrote: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. I'm curious about a related situation, namely an AP ticket that involves cross-London transfer. *If I board the booked (or recommended) train to London but then miss my onward booked connection due to problems with the tube, am I entitled to travel on a later service? I had that situation last Saturday, Paddington - Kings Cross. Both the FGW and the EC leg were on booked trains with reservations. *Arrival into Paddington was 'only' ten minutes late, but I failed to reach King's Cross in time because of a series of problems. I already knew that the normal H&C/Circle route was closed for engineering, as was the second-choice Bakerloo/Victoria, so I went for the third choice (Bakerloo/Piccadilly) only to find the Bakerloo at a standstill ('signalling problem at Oxford Circus'). *I didn't know enough about the bus routes from Padd to Kings Cross, so I walked to Lancaster Gate. Big mistake - I'd forgotten about the planned closure west of Marble Arch. Staff blocking the entrance at Lancaster Gate suggested bus from Paddington! *I chose to walk towards Marble Arch - tried to join buses en route but they were all full and not stopping. *I eventually got the second train from Marble Arch (first was full) thence via Holborn to Kings Cross, too late for the 1840. *Chap in the travel centre listened to my story then issued me with a "Revised travel arrangements" slip, for the 2000 train, endorsed 'late at PAD'. *I'm now wondering whether I have a legitimate claim against FGW as their 10-minute delay got me home 80 late - but was it their fault? I had earlier had a similar problem on my outward journey: 0820 from Retford 19 minutes late into Kings Cross, no H&C/Circle, no Victoria Line, Piccadilly train held in platform (passenger under train or some such), arrived Padd 1055 for 1045 train. *I was given the third degree ('two systems' allegedly showed my train had been on time at Kings Cross) but I persisted and after much delay the chap phoned KX who apparently said it was 17 late! *I said it was 19 minutes but I'd settle for 17, so was given authority to ride on the 1145. *Said authority was stapled to my ticket, so I couldn't use the automatic barrier, but I got there! *Perhaps I should claim against East Coast. The FGW chap was going to keep both my reservations, but he gave me back the EC one when I said I might claim against EC. *On the return journey the EC chap was much more relaxed about it all, and gave me back all three 'coupons' without my asking. 45 minutes is not enough for this transfer when there is engineering work on the Circle, but I suppose programming such stuff into the system is too difficult. So I had the problem twice in one day - the first such occasions ever for me, and I use Advance tickets a lot. Isn't PT wonderful. |
Through ticketing from tube to rail [part 2]
"NM" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote: "Roy Badami" wrote martin wrote: I'm curious to know what would happen if I was delayed on my way to Euston. I'm curious about a related situation, namely an AP ticket that involves cross-London transfer. If I board the booked (or recommended) train to London but then miss my onward booked connection due to problems with the tube, am I entitled to travel on a later service? I had that situation last Saturday, Paddington - Kings Cross. Both the FGW and the EC leg were on booked trains with reservations. Arrival into Paddington was 'only' ten minutes late, but I failed to reach King's Cross in time because of a series of problems. I already knew that the normal H&C/Circle route was closed for engineering, as was the second-choice Bakerloo/Victoria, so I went for the third choice (Bakerloo/Piccadilly) only to find the Bakerloo at a standstill ('signalling problem at Oxford Circus'). I didn't know enough about the bus routes from Padd to Kings Cross, so I walked to Lancaster Gate. Big mistake - I'd forgotten about the planned closure west of Marble Arch. Staff blocking the entrance at Lancaster Gate suggested bus from Paddington! I chose to walk towards Marble Arch - tried to join buses en route but they were all full and not stopping. I eventually got the second train from Marble Arch (first was full) thence via Holborn to Kings Cross, too late for the 1840. Chap in the travel centre listened to my story then issued me with a "Revised travel arrangements" slip, for the 2000 train, endorsed 'late at PAD'. I'm now wondering whether I have a legitimate claim against FGW as their 10-minute delay got me home 80 late - but was it their fault? I had earlier had a similar problem on my outward journey: 0820 from Retford 19 minutes late into Kings Cross, no H&C/Circle, no Victoria Line, Piccadilly train held in platform (passenger under train or some such), arrived Padd 1055 for 1045 train. I was given the third degree ('two systems' allegedly showed my train had been on time at Kings Cross) but I persisted and after much delay the chap phoned KX who apparently said it was 17 late! I said it was 19 minutes but I'd settle for 17, so was given authority to ride on the 1145. Said authority was stapled to my ticket, so I couldn't use the automatic barrier, but I got there! Perhaps I should claim against East Coast. The FGW chap was going to keep both my reservations, but he gave me back the EC one when I said I might claim against EC. On the return journey the EC chap was much more relaxed about it all, and gave me back all three 'coupons' without my asking. 45 minutes is not enough for this transfer when there is engineering work on the Circle, but I suppose programming such stuff into the system is too difficult. So I had the problem twice in one day - the first such occasions ever for me, and I use Advance tickets a lot. Isn't PT wonderful. Postscript to my day out on 27th February: FGW declined my request for a refund in respect of my journey from Newport to Retford. However, East Coast have just sent me vouchers to the value of £28.05, being the full cost of my advance (single) ticket from Retford to Newport. |
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