Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with £7.35 on my Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo. Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So the whole
day cost me £5.30 instead of £3.25.

If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to convert to it. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of scissors
through it!

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

On 7 Mar, 12:16, (Paul Cummins) wrote:
Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with 7.35 on my Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo. Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So the whole
day cost me 5.30 instead of 3.25.

If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to convert to it


It's fraud, plain and simple. They have programmed the system to
record a series of legal touches in and out, but then charge you for
not having touched.


.. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of scissors
through it!

Get the deposit back first.

In article ,
(MIG) wrote:

Get the deposit back first.

No deposit on mine - it was one of the "Freebies" from 2005/6

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

On 7 Mar, 12:16, (Paul Cummins) wrote:
Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with 7.35 on my Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo. Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So the whole
day cost me 5.30 instead of 3.25.

If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to convert to it. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of scissors
through it!

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

What reader did you touch at Stratford?

The in-station and non-gate readers are all well and good but multiple
touches don't read an exit and an entry.

Presumably an interchange touch is not needed at Stratford on a
journey from Liverpool Street (National Rail) and Woolwich Arsenal
using the DLR - the Oyster fare finder doesn't mention one.

I think that one problem is needing to know whether an interchange
touch is needed at places without pink validators

In article ,
(Jonathan Harris) wrote:

What reader did you touch at Stratford?

The yellow one at the entrance to Docklands - the only one I passed.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

In message p.homeip.ne
t of Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:16:00 in uk.transport.london, Paul Cummins
writes
Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only
in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with £7.35 on my
Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands
to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at
Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

I presume you touched at Stratford before boarding the DLR.
I assume you started your journey before 19.00
Your journey started at Northolt in Zone 5.
Your journey ended at Woolwich Arsenal in Zone 4.
My understanding is that the system views you as having travelled in 8
zones (5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, and 4.)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...imum_journey_t
imes gives a budget of 140 minutes for journeys starting in Mon-Fri
04:30-19:00.
Your journey to Liverpool Street probably took about 50 minutes. Your
journey from Liverpool Street probably took about 45 minutes. Together
with the 35 minutes at Liverpool Street, you could fairly easily have
burst the budget. The reason that your 2 journeys counted as 1 is that
there is an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) at Liverpool Street:
Liverpool Street LU London Liverpool Street NR 40

OSIs are not documented by TfL. The good news is that they will try to
sort things out. If your card is registered and you have an Oyster
Internet account, you should automatically get an email to correct
things within a week. If not, you have several alternatives. I would not
advise using a London Underground Ticket Office as, IMHO and experience,
the staff have inadequate power to resolve problems. I would not use the
Oyster helpline in 0800 - 2000 at 0845 330 9876 unless I had 30 minutes
for the call. I would not use https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csip/ZCr
eateRequestChangeRelatesTo.do?newTab=CA_13619
other than to find out what information Oyster wants to process a
complaint - the form does not email you a copy. You can navigate there
from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/, "Help & contact", "Oyster",
"Fares/Refunds.
I have hope in . I am unable to put
my hand on Tfl's budget for a reply. I think it is 10 working days.

I expect your journey cost 3.80/2.40 Northolt - Stratford and 11.80/8.40
Stratford - Woolwich Arsenal. 11.80 sums 6.00 peak entry and 5.80 peak
exit; 8.40 sums 4.30 and 4.10.

You may find it useful to get a last 8 journeys statement from an LU
ticket office. POMs (Passenger Operated Machines) are only programmed to
deliver such statements on screen.

You are the victim of a system which, IMHO, is only about 95% fit for
purpose.


So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge
to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo.
Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

I am puzzled by that. You may be the victim of a touch out system
failure - I have rarely experienced that.


And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So
the whole
day cost me £5.30 instead of £3.25.
How 5.30? Why 3.25? Z1-5 caps are 12.50/7.50. Even a 30% discount does
not reach your figure.


If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to
convert to it. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from
here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of
scissors
through it!


I agree that Oyster payg is NOW unfit for purpose. Until 02/01/10, there
was a 0.50 discount compared with ODTC and the risk of 8.00 penal
charges was acceptable. No discount and 11.80 charges are much less so.
--
Walter Briscoe

On 7 Mar, 20:10, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message p.homeip.ne
t of Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:16:00 in uk.transport.london, Paul Cummins
writes





Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only
in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with £7.35 on my
Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands
to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at
Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

I presume you touched at Stratford before boarding the DLR.
I assume you started your journey before 19.00
Your journey started at Northolt in Zone 5.
Your journey ended at Woolwich Arsenal in Zone 4.
My understanding is that the system views you as having travelled in 8
zones (5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, and 4.)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...imum_journey_t
imes gives a budget of 140 minutes for journeys starting in Mon-Fri
04:30-19:00.
Your journey to Liverpool Street probably took about 50 minutes. Your
journey from Liverpool Street probably took about 45 minutes. Together
with the 35 minutes at Liverpool Street, you could fairly easily have
burst the budget. The reason that your 2 journeys counted as 1 is that
there is an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) at Liverpool Street:
Liverpool Street * * * *LU * * *London Liverpool Street NR * * *40

OSIs are not documented by TfL. The good news is that they will try to
sort things out. If your card is registered and you have an Oyster
Internet account, you should automatically get an email to correct
things within a week. If not, you have several alternatives. I would not
advise using a London Underground Ticket Office as, IMHO and experience,
the staff have inadequate power to resolve problems. I would not use the
Oyster helpline in 0800 - 2000 at 0845 330 9876 unless I had 30 minutes
for the call. I would not use https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csip/ZCr
eateRequestChangeRelatesTo.do?newTab=CA_13619
other than to find out what information Oyster wants to process a
complaint - the form does not email you a copy. You can navigate there
from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/, "Help & contact", "Oyster",
"Fares/Refunds.
I have hope in . I am unable to put
my hand on Tfl's budget for a reply. I think it is 10 working days.

I expect your journey cost 3.80/2.40 Northolt - Stratford and 11.80/8.40
Stratford - Woolwich Arsenal. 11.80 sums 6.00 peak entry and 5.80 peak
exit; 8.40 sums 4.30 and 4.10.

You may find it useful to get a last 8 journeys statement from an LU
ticket office. POMs (Passenger Operated Machines) are only programmed to
deliver such statements on screen.

You are the victim of a system which, IMHO, is only about 95% fit for
purpose.



So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge
to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo.
Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

I am puzzled by that. You may be the victim of a touch out system
failure - I have rarely experienced that.



And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So
the whole
day cost me £5.30 instead of £3.25.

How 5.30? Why 3.25? Z1-5 caps are 12.50/7.50. Even a 30% discount does
not reach your figure.



If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to
convert to it. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from
here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of
scissors
through it!

I agree that Oyster payg is NOW unfit for purpose. Until 02/01/10, there
was a 0.50 discount compared with ODTC and the risk of 8.00 penal
charges was acceptable. No discount and 11.80 charges are much less so.
--
Walter Briscoe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oyster PAYG for an A to B journey is fine - if I am at Clapham
Junction and want to travel to Uxbridge its great - I can go to
Willesden Junction, touch the pink validator, go to Kenton, walk to
Northwick Park, take the Metropolitan line to Uxbridge and I'm charged
for a single journey. If I don't want to go that way, I can travel to
Finchley Road & Frognal, walk down the Finchley Road and get a
Metropolitan line tran to Uxbridge. Either way, I'm only charged
£1.30 for the journey.

The problem comes with not being able to cancel OSIs when you don't
want to benefit from it - perhaps this needs to be added to ticket
machines. If I wanted to stop at the shops on the Finchley Road, I've
got to know exactly how long the OSI allowance is because otherwise
I'll time out at Uxbridge.

I timed out twice on 22 December - the first time as a result of an
OSI at Kings Cross when I thought I been out of the barriers for long
enough and then missing a train at West Brompton so that I went back
to touch out at High Street Kensington and timed out. I got my £16
back on Friday at the Uxbridge gates having decided the day before
that I would arrive there by Oyster - being an occasional Oyster user
makes getting the refund difficult.

The problem comes from needing to know exactly where the OSIs are, how
long you are allowed, which interchange validators you need to touch,
not knowing how to cancel an OSI and knowing the journey durations.
You've almost got to check the single fare finder before travelling
which might be practical for someone with a phone wth the internet but
not the normal passenger.

I'm happy to benefit from the flexibility of Oyster but if I am making
anything other than a single journey or staying on buses all day then
you do have to think very carefully about when and where you touch in
and out. Presumably the TfL benevalence with refunds for this kind of
thing won't last forever.

Jonathan

On 7 Mar, 21:44, Jonathan Harris wrote:
On 7 Mar, 20:10, Walter Briscoe wrote:





In message p.homeip.ne
t of Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:16:00 in uk.transport.london, Paul Cummins
writes

Another day in London, another Oyster problem.

Strangely, I've never had a problem with using it on the way out, only
in central
zones.

Anyway. On Friday, finding myself at Northolt tube with £7.35 on my
Oyster, I used
the Central Line to get to Liverpool Street, where I bought a laptop.

35 minutes later, I caught the 16.02 to Stratford, then the Docklands
to Woolwich
Arsenal.

Got to Woolwich, touch out, go to touch in at the Rail Station, and my card is
empty. Apparently my journey from Northolt to Liverpool Street ended at
Stratford,
and my journey to Woolwich was not started!

I presume you touched at Stratford before boarding the DLR.
I assume you started your journey before 19.00
Your journey started at Northolt in Zone 5.
Your journey ended at Woolwich Arsenal in Zone 4.
My understanding is that the system views you as having travelled in 8
zones (5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, and 4.)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...imum_journey_t
imes gives a budget of 140 minutes for journeys starting in Mon-Fri
04:30-19:00.
Your journey to Liverpool Street probably took about 50 minutes. Your
journey from Liverpool Street probably took about 45 minutes. Together
with the 35 minutes at Liverpool Street, you could fairly easily have
burst the budget. The reason that your 2 journeys counted as 1 is that
there is an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) at Liverpool Street:
Liverpool Street * * * *LU * * *London Liverpool Street NR * * *40

OSIs are not documented by TfL. The good news is that they will try to
sort things out. If your card is registered and you have an Oyster
Internet account, you should automatically get an email to correct
things within a week. If not, you have several alternatives. I would not
advise using a London Underground Ticket Office as, IMHO and experience,
the staff have inadequate power to resolve problems. I would not use the
Oyster helpline in 0800 - 2000 at 0845 330 9876 unless I had 30 minutes
for the call. I would not use https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csip/ZCr
eateRequestChangeRelatesTo.do?newTab=CA_13619
other than to find out what information Oyster wants to process a
complaint - the form does not email you a copy. You can navigate there
from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/, "Help & contact", "Oyster",
"Fares/Refunds.
I have hope in . I am unable to put
my hand on Tfl's budget for a reply. I think it is 10 working days.

I expect your journey cost 3.80/2.40 Northolt - Stratford and 11.80/8.40
Stratford - Woolwich Arsenal. 11.80 sums 6.00 peak entry and 5.80 peak
exit; 8.40 sums 4.30 and 4.10.

You may find it useful to get a last 8 journeys statement from an LU
ticket office. POMs (Passenger Operated Machines) are only programmed to
deliver such statements on screen.

You are the victim of a system which, IMHO, is only about 95% fit for
purpose.

So, having argued with the staff, they give me a pass to London Bridge
to get it
sorted. And they d sort it there, so I now catch the tube to Waterloo.
Touch out at
Waterloo, try to touch in at Platform 15, and the same problem - apparently my
London Bridge to Waterloo didn't end!

I am puzzled by that. You may be the victim of a touch out system
failure - I have rarely experienced that.

And, despite my having a railcard, my cap wasn't applied that day!!! So
the whole
day cost me £5.30 instead of £3.25.

How 5.30? Why 3.25? Z1-5 caps are 12.50/7.50. Even a 30% discount does
not reach your figure.

If they can't make this system work, how do they expect people to
convert to it. I
for one, intend to stop using Oyster, and coming in on paper ODTCs from
here on in,
studiously leaving my Oyster at home. I'm considering putting a pair of
scissors
through it!

I agree that Oyster payg is NOW unfit for purpose. Until 02/01/10, there
was a 0.50 discount compared with ODTC and the risk of 8.00 penal
charges was acceptable. No discount and 11.80 charges are much less so.
--
Walter Briscoe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oyster PAYG for an A to B journey is fine - if I am at Clapham
Junction and want to travel to Uxbridge its great - I can go to
Willesden Junction, touch the pink validator, go to Kenton, walk to
Northwick Park, take the Metropolitan line to Uxbridge and I'm charged
for a single journey. *If I don't want to go that way, I can travel to
Finchley Road & Frognal, walk down the Finchley Road and get a
Metropolitan line tran to Uxbridge. *Either way, I'm only charged
£1.30 for the journey.

The problem comes with not being able to cancel OSIs when you don't
want to benefit from it - perhaps this needs to be added to ticket
machines. *If I wanted to stop at the shops on the Finchley Road, I've
got to know exactly how long the OSI allowance is because otherwise
I'll time out at Uxbridge.

I timed out twice on 22 December - the first time as a result of an
OSI at Kings Cross when I thought I been out of the barriers for long
enough and then missing a train at West Brompton so that I went back
to touch out at High Street Kensington and timed out. *I got my £16
back on Friday at the Uxbridge gates having decided the day before
that I would arrive there by Oyster - being an occasional Oyster user
makes getting the refund difficult.

The problem comes from needing to know exactly where the OSIs are, how
long you are allowed, which interchange validators you need to touch,
not knowing how to cancel an OSI and knowing the journey durations.
You've almost got to check the single fare finder before travelling
which might be practical for someone with a phone wth the internet but
not the normal passenger.

I'm happy to benefit from the flexibility of Oyster but if I am making
anything other than a single journey or staying on buses all day then
you do have to think very carefully about when and where you touch in
and out. *Presumably the TfL benevalence with refunds for this kind of
thing won't last forever.

Jonathan-

Er, TfL benevolence?

TfL is the recipient of benevolence as long as people put up with
this.

After years of excuses and apologism, this stuff is still going on,
and it's a systematic fraud.

In what other industry would it be possible to say "I have complete
records of my customer's activity, which I am deliberately ignoring in
order to charge them for something that I know they didn't do"?

Time for a class action I think.

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

How 5.30? Why 3.25? Z1-5 caps are 12.50/7.50. Even a 30% discount
does not reach your figure.

New Deal Railcard. 50% discount.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

In message , Walter Briscoe
writes
things within a week. If not, you have several alternatives. I would not
advise using a London Underground Ticket Office as, IMHO and experience,
the staff have inadequate power to resolve problems. I would not use the
Oyster helpline in 0800 - 2000 at 0845 330 9876 unless I had 30 minutes
for the call.

My experience (reported on another thread) was similar. I called at a
Tube ticket office which claimed that they had resolved my unresolved
journey, and indeed some sort of confirmation message flashed up on the
screen, but it wasn't actually solved, I was had still be overcharged by
about £6 for the supposedly capped day. I only had to spend 29 minutes
on the phone to the Oyster Helpline the following day. I suppose that
means half-an-hour is a good average figure to aim for on the phone.

I have hope in . I am unable to put
my hand on Tfl's budget for a reply. I think it is 10 working days.

Thanks for posting that - I'll try that next time (if I haven't already
destroyed my Oyster card in anger before that).

--
Clive Page