Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 9, 12:53*am, TheOneKEA wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

Must have been some time over the long Easter weekend - the whole
Jubilee line was closed for all four days. It was still there (albeit
locked open as it has been for months) last week.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 9, 1:18*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 9, 12:53*am, TheOneKEA wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

Must have been some time over the long Easter weekend - the whole
Jubilee line was closed for all four days. It was still there (albeit
locked open as it has been for months) last week.

Indeed, the text under the photo (that I've only just noticed!) says 4
April - that's Easter Sunday (i.e. Sunday just gone).

So long, the strange 'internal gateline' of Stratford!

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.

I think Paul Corfield has explained in the past that there was originally
thought to be too great a revenue risk at Stratford - that view must have
been challenged within LU I guess - and of course the maximum cash fare now
covers the costs if you touch out elsewhere on the Jubilee without touching
in.

It was first switched off last November or December sometime though, there
were posts here about it if you search back.

Paul S

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 9, 8:03*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:39:49 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"TheOneKEA" wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). *It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.

I think Paul Corfield has explained in the past that there was originally
thought to be too great a revenue risk at Stratford - that view must have
been challenged within LU I guess - and of course the maximum cash fare now
covers the costs if you touch out elsewhere on the Jubilee without touching
in.

Not quite - there was simply a policy decision to gate off the Jubilee
Line as far as possible. The only place it could really be done was
Stratford. *It wasn't exactly feasible to put gates on all the
connecting corridors between lines at Waterloo or London Bridge!

West Ham might have been do-able though, in the bridge passageway - it
might have also had to take in the NLL platforms (as well) though.


It was first switched off last November or December sometime though, there
were posts here about it if you search back.

I actually think this is all to do with Oyster on National Rail. *The
need to have so many Oyster OSIs in order to calculate the proper
through fare on the correct tariff and time band is probably the thing
that caused the concept of an interchange gateline to be abandoned. The
additional intermediate validation meant you could have two exits in a
row or two entries in a row. *Oyster PAYG works on "in then out" to
determine correct charging. *My guess is that a patch was possible when
PAYG was TfL only but once you expanded it wider then the patch became
unworkable and a system redesign for one location was not financially
justifiable. * The timing of going to "open mode" late last year is
almost certainly related to the downloading of revised software for PAYG
on National Rail.

The above is my speculation - I have no inside information.

I was in Stratford last September and saw something quite bizarre - a
couple of the Jubbly gates (in each direction) had standalone
validators fitted next to them and these featured pink (interchange)
pads, so it almost seemed as if some pax were going to be expected to
validate twice to get through the gates. This kinda blew my mind! I
did take a couple of very bad photos, but the Jubilee was closed that
weekend so I never saw if this arrangement was ever actually used. I'd
intended to post here about it, but things happened and I wasn't on
utl for a while thereafter, so I never got round to it. I'll try and
find said photos (which is something I'm sure I've said beforehand
though!). When I was next passing through Stratford in December (I
think), I took a look and found the gates locked open (with Oyster
pads inactive/ turned off), and the four or so standalone readers
active with yellow pads - this remained the situation a week or so
ago.

I'm wondering if the extra standalone validators were some far out
kludge that someone had devised to supposedly sort out some
horrifically complicated issue connected with the PAYG expansion - if
so, thankfully it got vetoed at some point (because it would have been
too confusing for words!). But these extra standalone readers were
definitely new installations as of sometime late summer '09, so
whatever it was had got far enough along the line to leave the drawing
board and assume a physical manifestation in the real world.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

My own experience is of SWT stations such as Richmond or Wimbledon having
validators on the paid side specifically to start/finish PAYG having arrived
by a mainline service, but I must admit I haven't been to either recently.
What would be worrying is if someone has decided that all interchange
between PAYG and NR has to be done at the outer boundary, eg Zone 6
(ignoring the extended areas in the NW etc for the moment)...

Paul S

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 9, 9:39*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:07:59 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

I was in Stratford last September and saw something quite bizarre - a
couple of the Jubbly gates (in each direction) had standalone
validators fitted next to them and these featured pink (interchange)
pads, so it almost seemed as if some pax were going to be expected to
validate twice to get through the gates. This kinda blew my mind! I
did take a couple of very bad photos, but the Jubilee was closed that
weekend so I never saw if this arrangement was ever actually used. I'd
intended to post here about it, but things happened and I wasn't on
utl for a while thereafter, so I never got round to it. I'll try and
find said photos (which is something I'm sure I've said beforehand
though!). When I was next passing through Stratford in December (I
think), I took a look and found the gates locked open (with Oyster
pads inactive/ turned off), and the four or so standalone readers
active with yellow pads - this remained the situation a week or so
ago.

I'm wondering if the extra standalone validators were some far out
kludge that someone had devised to supposedly sort out some
horrifically complicated issue connected with the PAYG expansion - if
so, thankfully it got vetoed at some point (because it would have been
too confusing for words!). But these extra standalone readers were
definitely new installations as of sometime late summer '09, so
whatever it was had got far enough along the line to leave the drawing
board and assume a physical manifestation in the real world.

Remember though that Oyster routing validators were introduced with PAYG
in September last year. *The population expanded a bit when Oyster on NR
happened. It will expand a wee bit more when ELLX opens. * Again more
speculation from me but the Oyster route validators must create a
special transaction on the Oyster card which is used by the validation
device on final exit to charge the correct fare. *In effect it is an
"interchange" transaction with a purpose. *The JLE gateline also used to
set an "interchange" entry or exit transaction but it had no routing
purpose because there was only ever one PAYG fare prior to the "pink
invasion". * I would speculate that TfL decided that one form of
interchange transaction record had rather more value than one specific
to one location on the system.

I am sure that the things you saw there were put in to allow people
travelling from the east of Stratford, on the NLL and on NXEA from
Tottenham Hale to register their route so as to be charged via Zone 2/3
rather than via Zone 1.

I will dig the photos out and post them up somewhere (rather than
wasting time and effort jousting with Luko elsewhere!). It was a very
bizarre arrangement, but as I said I was never there to see it in
action (if it ever was in action). Afraid my abject failure to post
something timely on here means we're discussing it now when it's all
now history!


What is not clear from the photos I've seen of Stratford since the gates
went is whether there are still routing validators near the Jubilee Line
platforms. *It would make sense for them to be still there given the
need to log your route remains.

When I saw the very same validators later - in December, or maybe it
was January actually, then again a week or so ago, they'd changed from
pink to yellow pads. No photographic evidence this time I'm afraid,
but I'm 100% certain of it. No idea if there's anything there now -
I'll try and route myself via Stratford soon and have a butchers.


Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry on
my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale I
ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There are non
on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to them. This
strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central line
platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I imagine
most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The NXEA staff
had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where the nearest
validator was.

Not ideal, no. The new NLL platforms have them, but of course the NLL
platforms are very much closed at present. Others are on the Central
line platforms and at the entrance to the (existing) DLR platforms.
There weren't any validators at the end of platform 10 (?) where the
stop for the bus link for Stratford Int'l is located - though that
doesn't provide for access to the great outside.

(Quite separately I wonder how well used the highspeed services to
Stratford are by commuters, specifically those bound for Docklands/
Canary Wharf which must surely be the bulk of the potential market -
though maybe a few of those City bound might find getting on an NXEA
Great Eastern to Liverpool Street do-able, what with all the Central
line interchangees who alight at Stratford for the tube? Though the
Met/Circle line from KXSP will probably remain the preferable choice.)

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms at London Bridge
soon and take a look.

I suppose there might be potential worries about the possibility for
misuse/abuse of the system when it comes to interchange validators.

(Though if they've come from Portsmouth and have changed Waterloo/
Waterloo East to get to London Bridge, then they might as well touch
in when entering Waterloo East!)


My own experience is of SWT stations such as Richmond or Wimbledon having
validators on the paid side specifically to start/finish PAYG having arrived
by a mainline service, but I must admit I haven't been to either recently..
What would be worrying is if someone has decided that all interchange
between PAYG and NR has to be done at the outer boundary, eg Zone 6
(ignoring the extended areas in the NW etc for the moment)...

That doesn't really follow. If someone had a ticket for London
Terminals, then that (London Bridge, Charing X etc) is where their
ticket is valid to. The issue is that they might then need to exit and
re-enter the station if they wanted to use Oyster PAYG for onward rail
travel in London (e.g. to Forest Hill). Depending on what their travel
plans are, there might be better off - or at least not any worse off
(or possibly not much worse off) if they buy an outboundary Day
Travelcard from say Tunbridge Wells or wherever (though definitely not
so if it's just the single trip).

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington (post footie, so the H&I gates
were in the open position to handle the crowds, and it was when the
NLL was still running and hence the NLL platforms accessible). I think
I then went and got on the Vic line - anyhow, there was no unresolved
journey or anything like that. So, going by this the pink validators
at West Brompton can be used to start a PAYG journey at least. Whether
they can end a journey I can't say - I suspect they can, but I haven't
tested that yet. Of course, just to be clear the official TfL guidance
is that pink validators should *not* be used to start or end a journey
- so don't anyone get in trouble by following me!

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 09/04/2010 11:39, Paul Scott wrote:
wrote in message
...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.


Did they install a trip validator?

BTW, when are they going to open up Straford Regional and Stratford
International there?

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 10, 12:51*am, "
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:39, Paul Scott wrote:

*wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). *It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.

Did they install a trip validator?

What precisely do you mean by "trip validator"?

If you mean a standalone validator for people changing between paper
rail tickets and Oyster PAYG, then a post over on uk.railway suggests
that there are indeed standalone validators for this purpose on the
concourse that leads to/from the Jubilee line platforms.


BTW, when are they going to open up Straford Regional and Stratford
International there?

Stratford International opened for Southeastern highspeed services
back in November '09. Stratford Regional is the new name of the
existing station (not sure when the renaming is to happen). If you
mean when is the DLR extension to Stratford Int'l (from Canning Town)
going to open, then the broad brush answer is "Summer 2010" - see:
http://developments.dlr.co.uk/extensions/stratford/whatnext.asp

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 10/04/2010 01:46, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 10, 12:51 am,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:39, Paul Scott wrote:

wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.

Did they install a trip validator?

What precisely do you mean by "trip validator"?

Route validator, I meant

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 10 Apr, 00:25, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off atLondonBridgeas soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms atLondonBridge
soon and take a look.


I looked at the ones at the end of platform 5/6 yesterday and they
were off.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

Mizter T wrote:


By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington (post footie, so the H&I gates
were in the open position to handle the crowds, and it was when the
NLL was still running and hence the NLL platforms accessible). I think
I then went and got on the Vic line - anyhow, there was no unresolved
journey or anything like that. So, going by this the pink validators
at West Brompton can be used to start a PAYG journey at least. Whether
they can end a journey I can't say - I suspect they can, but I haven't
tested that yet. Of course, just to be clear the official TfL guidance
is that pink validators should *not* be used to start or end a journey
- so don't anyone get in trouble by following me!

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Paul S

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:

On 10 Apr, 00:25, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went
live on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms at London Bridge
soon and take a look.

I looked at the ones at the end of platform 5/6 yesterday and they
were off.

Ok. Well, see Paul Scott's separate comment on this issue.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote:
*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

But its not travelling without a ticket. As long as you have a PAYG that
has sufficient funds to pay the not touching in penalty fare at wherever
you're going to then its valid.

B2003

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

MIG wrote:
On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:58 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having
thought it through again. With extension to the NR routes they do
actually become a major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous
suggestions about a 'soft exit' cover the situation. Transfer from
LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a touch on an interchange validator
and the system will treat that as your exit - if you then don't
touch out on exit at an ungated station further down the line
you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

But a touch at a wide gate would be a proper touch out, not one of Mizter
T's 'soft exits'. If gripped further down the line the 'soft exit' shows up
but your account is still 'pending' a final touch out. IIRC from previous
discussions it will time out eventually?

*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No, I think unless they've changed something you are still 'touched in'.
Others might be able to explain better.

Paul S

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 1:39*pm, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote:

*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

But its not travelling without a ticket. As long as you have a PAYG that
has sufficient funds to pay the not touching in penalty fare at wherever
you're going to then its valid.

Quite.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 1:25*pm, MIG wrote:

On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? *If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

What do you mean by that - a manual side gate with an reader next to
it? In which case I suspect that might not work - I suspect the
journey may be closed, albeit with the option of it being re-opened by
passing back through a gate (either LU or NR), or possibly even
touching on a reader next to a manual side gate again, but in any case
the journey would then need final closure at the far end.


*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No - as Boltar correctly says, it's a legitimately valid ticket as the
journey remains open.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 1:45*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:58 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having
thought it through again. With extension to the NR routes they do
actually become a major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous
suggestions about a 'soft exit' cover the situation. Transfer from
LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a touch on an interchange validator
and the system will treat that as your exit - if you then don't
touch out on exit at an ungated station further down the line
you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? *If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

But a touch at a wide gate would be a proper touch out, not one of Mizter
T's 'soft exits'. [...]

If we're referring to a proper "wide aisle gate" (or WAG - LU
terminology!) then yes - it would register as a conclusive touch-out
and end of the journey - albeit one that could be re-opened as a
result of an OSI (e.g. entering the gates at London Bridge tube
station).

[...] If gripped further down the line the 'soft exit' shows up
but your account is still 'pending' a final touch out. IIRC from previous
discussions it will time out eventually?

Yes.


*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No, I think unless they've changed something you are still 'touched in'.

Yes.

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

Paul S

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Apr 13, 2:05*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

It does kinda make my brain hurt I admit, trying to fit it all
together and then explain it in a way that does actually makes some
sense!

It's not stuff that should concern the normal passenger though (at
least that's the theory). Touching on a validator *within a paid-area*
shouldn't matter - and I did this myself last year, when I was
finishing a journey at Stratford - leaving the Jubilee line's then
extant 'internal gateline' I proceeded to touch on every standalone
validator at Stratford I could find (NLL platforms, DLR platform
entrance, Central line platforms) before exiting the main gate line -
'twas no problem. I did the same when I re-entered Stratford, and when
I left my destination station (somewhere central on the Jubilee I
think, Waterloo perhaps, but it's irrelevant) again it didn't lead to
any issues.

As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up - but it's rather hard to discuss the
system without mentioning them. (It was around this point in a not
dissimilar previous thread where Tom Anderson marked me down as a
former Home Secretary!)

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:35:18 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up

Why not?

B2003

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 13 Apr, 13:52, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 1:25*pm, MIG wrote:





On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? *If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

What do you mean by that - a manual side gate with an reader next to
it? In which case I suspect that might not work - I suspect the
journey may be closed, albeit with the option of it being re-opened by
passing back through a gate (either LU or NR), or possibly even
touching on a reader next to a manual side gate again, but in any case
the journey would then need final closure at the far end.



*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No - as Boltar correctly says, it's a legitimately valid ticket as the
journey remains open.

If that's how it works. I've always thought of the validators at
London Bridge and similar to be for interchange between Oyster and non-
Oyster (or vice versa).

Why would they have been put there for validation of an ongoing Oyster
journey? Surely they were for starting or finishing a central London
Thameslink journey and finishing or starting an NR ticketed journey?

I believe you that they do leave a journey open, but I can't
understand why they should. And how does it work on the DLR?

If you started a DLR journey at Greenwich, touched out at Pudding
Basin, then continued to an ungated NR station on the way to Harold
Wood, would that be an open journey? Would it be different if you
touched out at Bow Church (OSI)?

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

On 13 Apr, 14:35, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 2:05*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 13, 1:45 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Others might be able to explain better.

Not sure I've got the energy to invent the requisite terminology at
the moment!

The Oyster card is essentially left in an ambiguous state after
touching on a validator that's configured for (what I've called)
'interchange mode' - the journey may have finished, the journey might
be continuing - if it continues and is inspected, there's no problem
as it is correctly validated. If the journey doesn't continue, the
potential for a continuing journey eventually times out.

I'll store that away - it's as good an explanation as any of how I think it
works (or worked!)...

It does kinda make my brain hurt I admit, trying to fit it all
together and then explain it in a way that does actually makes some
sense!

It's not stuff that should concern the normal passenger though (at
least that's the theory). Touching on a validator *within a paid-area*
shouldn't matter - and I did this myself last year, when I was
finishing a journey at Stratford - leaving the Jubilee line's then
extant 'internal gateline' I proceeded to touch on every standalone
validator at Stratford I could find (NLL platforms, DLR platform
entrance, Central line platforms) before exiting the main gate line -
'twas no problem. I did the same when I re-entered Stratford, and when
I left my destination station (somewhere central on the Jubilee I
think, Waterloo perhaps, but it's irrelevant) again it didn't lead to
any issues.

OK, I see what you are getting at, but I had always assumed that this
was dealt with by programming for ignoring a double touch at the same
station, rather than leaving the journey open to continue to somewhere
else an hour later.

That is, it wouldn't create loads of journeys from Stratford to
Stratford, as long as you only exited at Stratford.

But I infer from what you say that the journey might be left open so
as not to penalise people who feel compelled to touch every validator
they see for fear of being penalised for not touching, if they are
going from, say, DLR to Mile End.

London Bridge would have been different anyway. When it was set up,
you wouldn't have been able to continue by PAYG to anywhere from
Thameslink without going through a barrier.




As ever, I find it a bit awkward discussing such things as I'm not
keen on flagging x,y or z up - but it's rather hard to discuss the
system without mentioning them. (It was around this point in a not
dissimilar previous thread where Tom Anderson marked me down as a
former Home Secretary!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jubilee Line gateline at Stratford is gone!
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...


You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went
live on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as
'London Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from
outside the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but
to exit using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really
the current situation - and is it reasonable?

I think the answers are Yes and No. I tend to decide in advance how I'm
going to pay for my journey. Until recently Southern have been offering
Super Off Peak discounted travelcards from Brighton for £8.35, so I've
bought these and kept the Oyster card in my pocket. They're now offering
discounted London Terminals return tickets from Brighton for £7.45 so I'm
able to work with those + Oyster.

The only problem likely to hit me is with changing from paper to Oyster on
the Thameslink route. I tend to do one of the following:

1. for destinations near Farringdon: use City Thameslink and walk the extra
distance.

2. for destinations near Kings X: use Southern to Victoria and the Victoria
line, which is usually faster anyway.

DAS