[originally posted to uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On May 6, 6:52*am, Stephen Furley wrote:
The day before I started the course in Wokingham last week I was told
that I was being sent on another one for four days this week. *Nothing
for several years, then two in two weeks.This one is in London, close
to Ladbroke Grove Underground station, *I decided the best way to get
there was train to Shepherds Bush, and then walk from there. *I
haven't used the West London Line recently, the last time was just
after Imperial Wharf station opened, and that was only as far as
Kensington Olympia. *The trains used to not be full, except during
major events at Earls Court, and even then there were not usually many
people standing. *I was expecting to have to stand from Smitham to
Clapham Junction, but not on the West London. *On Tuesday I was on a
Southern train terminating at Shepherds Bush, and was a few minutes
late getting to the venue, so yesterday I went earlier and caught a
London Overground train, going through to Gospel Oak. *Both were very
heavily loaded; a match for anything on the peak-hour Southern. *What
has changed the situation s much in such a short time? *Shepherds Bush
station was open when I last used the line, though I didn't go hat
far, indeed, I'd never been through the station until Tuesday. *There
were quite a few schoolboys who got out at West Brompton, but
presumably they would have been using that station for some years.

The obvious answer would seem to be the opening of the Westfield
Centre, but I wasn't travelling in either direction during shopping
hours, and few of the evening passengers showed any evidence of being
shoppers. *I suppose some of them could have been staff at the Centre,
the times would have been about right for that, but if the trains are
so full at the times I used them, what are they like when they are
full of shoppers, and shopping?

Shepherds Bush station itself is very busy, and very crowded; is it
going to be able to cope in future? *If so many people are using the
station even outside shopping hours, surely this indicates that the
station was needed before; why was it not built until almost seventy
years after Uxbridge Road closed?

Are the trains this full all day?

I don't know at quite what time of day you used the line, and when you
last used it, but the WLL has become increasingly popular over the
past several years (i.e. looking back over the past decade - and
bearing in mind that the Clapham Jn to Willesden Jn service was only
re-introduced in the mid-90's). It's become pretty well used
throughout the day - both London Overground (LO) (formerly Silverlink
Metro) and Southern services - and during the peaks it has been packed
for some time. Note that this was the case *before* the opening of
Shepherd's Bush station and the subsequent opening of the Westfield
shopping centre - the latter has of course particularly led to further
increases in off-peak traffic on the line.

From today's perspective it's easy to say that the line used to be
something of an underutilised resource for passenger traffic,
considering how popular it is today - it;s success mirrors that of the
North London Line (and indeed, as you know, some peak trains run
through past Willesden Jn onto the NLL - more such through running is
to come throughout the day once NLL improvements are finished) -
indeed it almost seems blindingly obvious that passenger services on
this line would be a hit, and bemusing to think that they didn't exist
before the mid-90's. However travel patterns change, demographics
change, traffic congestion changes the picture, etc etc etc. In the
past there wasn't either the demand or the perceived demand for such
trains, with people using buses and cars for making such orbital
journeys, or routing themselves through central London, or just not
making such journeys at all.

One think you haven't mentioned is the "isolationist" attitude of the
Southern Region which resulted in a resistance to re-opening the West London
Line and the Snow Hill Line as well.

Wonder what they would have thought of the ELL going down to West Croydon?

Paul Rigg wrote:
One think you haven't mentioned is the "isolationist" attitude of the
Southern Region which resulted in a resistance to re-opening the West
London Line and the Snow Hill Line as well.

Wonder what they would have thought of the ELL going down to West
Croydon?

Many people might have thought of that as the SR expanding into a new
terminus in Dalston, I reckon. That'll be why it has been built as a third
rail branch off the main network - and IMHO it would have worked exactly the
same using SN operated trains, if the 378s had been bought for them instead.

Paul S

"Paul Rigg" wrote in message
...


One think you haven't mentioned is the "isolationist" attitude of the
Southern Region which resulted in a resistance to re-opening the West
London Line and the Snow Hill Line as well.

Wonder what they would have thought of the ELL going down to West Croydon?

The Southern Railway was a part owner of the East London Railway (and for
that matter, of the West London Extension Railway).

Peter

On May 6, 6:31*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:


The Southern Railway was a part owner of the East London Railway

Which always makes it strange it did not get SR third rails when they
did the inner suburban lines it connected to at the southern end of
the ELL.

--
Nick

"D7666" wrote in message
...
On May 6, 6:31 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:


The Southern Railway was a part owner of the East London Railway

Which always makes it strange it did not get SR third rails when they
did the inner suburban lines it connected to at the southern end of
the ELL.

That's because it had already got 4th rails - although the SECR and LBSCR
part owned it, from 1913 the Metropolitan ran all the passenger trains.
Until 1941, as well as the Shoreditch/Whitechapel to New Cross stations
service here were through trains from Hammersmith (H&C) via St Mary's curve.

Peter

Peter

On 6 May, 09:00, Mizter T wrote:

I don't know at quite what time of day you used the line, and when you
last used it, but the WLL has become increasingly popular over the
past several years (i.e. looking back over the past decade - and
bearing in mind that the Clapham Jn to Willesden Jn service was only
re-introduced in the mid-90's). It's become pretty well used
throughout the day - both London Overground (LO) (formerly Silverlink
Metro) and Southern services - and during the peaks it has been packed
for some time. Note that this was the case *before* the opening of
Shepherd's Bush station and the subsequent opening of the Westfield
shopping centre - the latter has of course particularly led to further
increases in off-peak traffic on the line.

Yesterday and today I arrived at Shepherds Bush at about 08:03, and
returned from there at about 18:38, so just outside main shopping
hours. On Monday about 30 minutes later in the morning and 30 minutes
earlier in the evening.

The last times I used the line would have been when I met up with a
former work colleague at the Great British Beer Festival in August,
and shortly after that for an exhibition at Olympia. The exhibition
was around midday, and the beer festival just before 17:00 from East
Croydon and returning about three hours later.

A few years ago I quite often used the line at weekends, but haven't
done so recently.


From today's perspective it's easy to say that the line used to be
something of an underutilised resource for passenger traffic,
considering how popular it is today - it;s success mirrors that of the
North London Line (and indeed, as you know, some peak trains run
through past Willesden Jn onto the NLL - more such through running is
to come throughout the day once NLL improvements are finished) -
indeed it almost seems blindingly obvious that passenger services on
this line would be a hit, and bemusing to think that they didn't exist
before the mid-90's. However travel patterns change, demographics
change, traffic congestion changes the picture, etc etc etc. In the
past there wasn't either the demand or the perceived demand for such
trains, with people using buses and cars for making such orbital
journeys, or routing themselves through central London, or just not
making such journeys at all.

Look at all of these non-radial routes:

Broad Street - Richmond. An obscure outpost of the railway system,
little used outside of peak hour city workers. Came close to losing
its passenger service altogether.

Dalston - Stratford. No service since Broad Street - Poplar closed in
about 1940. Even when that was still running there was no direct
service to Stratford. I'm not sure when the Victoria Park - Stratford
shuttle was withdrawn.

Gospel Oak (or Kentish Town) - Barking. I doubt that most Londoners
even knew this line existed twenty years ago.

East London Line. Had a regular and frequent service, but didn't go
very far.

West London Line. A few peak hour trains. Nothing north of
Kensington, only three stations remaining open. This line must have
come close to being closed (to passengers) surely.

South London Line. A few peak hour trains, and these little used.

I can understand the West London closing during the War, and getting
it re-opened probably wasn't the highest priority afterwards, but I'm
surprised that it took so long to get a proper service back on it.
Was there really no demand for one? How do you predict the likely
demand for a service which doesn't exist, with enough certainty to get
somebody to put up the money to get it running?

On 6 May, 10:01, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
One think you haven't mentioned is the "isolationist" attitude of the
Southern Region which resulted in a resistance to re-opening the West London
Line and the Snow Hill Line as well.

Wonder what they would have thought of the ELL going down to West Croydon?

Not only was were Southern companies (LBSCR, SER, and LCDR) part
owners of the ELR, but the LBSCR operated a Liverpool Street to
Croydon service over the line.

"W14_Fishbourne" wrote in message
...
On 6 May, 10:01, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
One think you haven't mentioned is the "isolationist" attitude of the
Southern Region which resulted in a resistance to re-opening the West
London
Line and the Snow Hill Line as well.

Wonder what they would have thought of the ELL going down to West
Croydon?

Not only was were Southern companies (LBSCR, SER, and LCDR) part
owners of the ELR, but the LBSCR operated a Liverpool Street to
Croydon service over the line.

For a time they operated a Liverpool Street to Brighton service. The SER ran
Liverpool Street to Addiscombe (which is almost Croydon), and at one time
the Great Eastern ran trains fromLiverpool treet to Central Croydon.

Peter