In message , Graham Harrison
writes

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using
that pass, who pays?

The London boroughs. In the same way that if I used my London Freedom
pass in Somerset, then Somerset County Council pay (although local
authorities get quite a substantial government grant towards the cost).

Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt
to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very
much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my
wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to
see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I
didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and
he seemed quite happy with that.

In London, the London Boroughs agree a lump sum with TfL (£251 million
for the current year, of which the bus element is £188.6 million).

This payment covers the use of both Freedom passes and National
Concessionary Permits throughout the area. I imagine that it is reckoned
that use of National bus passes within London roughly balances the use
of Freedom passes outside of London, so there is no clearing house
system of passing relatively small amounts of money between councils for
"out of area" use of passes.

I've always assumed that the National Concessionary Permit scheme works
similarly outside of London - local councils agree a lump sum with the
bus operator(s) concerned. No doubt this is verified by means of
sampling, but I doubt that it would be worth collecting data on every
individual journey in order to calculate the precise sums involved.
--
Paul Terry

On Jun 15, 6:10 pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:
[snip]
Whoa.....

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that
pass, who pays? [...]

The underlying principle of ENCTS is that the local authority in which
the journey takes place (or at least starts in) pays.

The arrangements in London are a bit different to the rest of England,
as (pretty much all) local bus are regulated and operate under
contract to TfL. The London Boroughs collectively (all 32 of them,
plus the City of London Corporation) - pay TfL a sum for concessionary
travel, whilst this has always covered concessionary travel for
Londoners (under the London Freedom Pass scheme) my understanding is
that this payment now also covers concessionary travel for ENCTS pass
holders from outwith London, as per the principle I outlined above.

(This collective payment from the Boroughs to TfL is actually made
through "London Councils", which is the local government association
for London, who manage the concessionary travel scheme on behalf of
the Boroughs.)

Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made
no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt
very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my
wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it
was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of
my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy
with that.

My understanding is that at present the amount of concessionary travel
that happens on London's bus network is actually assessed by surveys
done by TfL in association with London Councils, rather than as a
result of feedback from button presses on the bus ticket machine.
Indeed I don't think (though couldn't say for certain) there's a
specific button that gets pressed to register an ENCTS pass is
presented - I *think* it's just the generic 'TfL pass' button. (If
you're quick you might be able to see what is shown on the ticket
machine's LCD display - "LRT pass" is I think still the generic
description associated with this.)

As and when the smartcard readers on London's buses are upgraded to be
ITSO compatible (as at present they can only read 'Oyster-type'
cards), then TfL will be able to require ENCTS pass holders to 'touch-
in' just like Oyster card users, and with London Councils will be able
to analyse data for concessionary travel usage and patterns far more
precisely. But we're not there yet.

With regards to the contractual payments made to the actual bus
operator by TfL for running the service, then this won't have anything
to do with how many passengers were travelling using concessionary
passes. TfL pays bus operators on a broadly gross cost basis under a
scheme called "Quality Incentive Contracts", under which TfL takes the
full revenue risk and operators don't keep any of the farebox takings.
As you can see, this element is very different to the deregulated bus
world outside London.

Incidentally, if you wish to know more about how things operate in
London, then TfL produced this primer document entitled "London"s Bus
Contracting and Tendering Process" which outlines it all - see (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/businessan...ing-feb-09.pdf
or via http://tinyurl.com/a7ar39

On Jun 15, 6:56*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Graham Harrison
writes

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using
that pass, who pays?

The London boroughs. In the same way that if I used my London Freedom
pass in Somerset, then Somerset County Council pay (although local
authorities get quite a substantial government grant towards the cost).

Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt
to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very
much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my
wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to
see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. * Oh and I
didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and
he seemed quite happy with that.

In London, the London Boroughs agree a lump sum with TfL (£251 million
for the current year, of which the bus element is £188.6 million).

This payment covers the use of both Freedom passes and National
Concessionary Permits throughout the area. I imagine that it is reckoned
that use of National bus passes within London roughly balances the use
of Freedom passes outside of London, so there is no clearing house
system of passing relatively small amounts of money between councils for
"out of area" use of passes.

AIUI there isn't any sort of 'clearing house' system in operation
anywhere in England - local authorities have to stump up for ENCTS
pass usage in their area regardless of where the pass holder comes
from and there's no system of recompense from that pass holders own
local authority.

I'm no expert at all but I understand this led to problems in tourist/
well visited areas, an example that was cited being Blackpool where
lots of non-locals were making use of the free concessionary travel,
with Blackpool Council being landed with the bill. I think things were
tweaked so local authorities in areas where this happened (such as
Blackpool) get more money from the DfT to help them out. (Not a
clearing house system, more a recognition of need/demand.) Others here
will be far more expert on all this.


I've always assumed that the National Concessionary Permit scheme works
similarly outside of London - local councils agree a lump sum with the
bus operator(s) concerned. No doubt this is verified by means of
sampling, but I doubt that it would be worth collecting data on every
individual journey in order to calculate the precise sums involved.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Jun 15, 6:10 pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:
[snip]
Whoa.....

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using
that
pass, who pays? [...]

The underlying principle of ENCTS is that the local authority in which
the journey takes place (or at least starts in) pays.

The arrangements in London are a bit different to the rest of England,
as (pretty much all) local bus are regulated and operate under
contract to TfL. The London Boroughs collectively (all 32 of them,
plus the City of London Corporation) - pay TfL a sum for concessionary
travel, whilst this has always covered concessionary travel for
Londoners (under the London Freedom Pass scheme) my understanding is
that this payment now also covers concessionary travel for ENCTS pass
holders from outwith London, as per the principle I outlined above.

(This collective payment from the Boroughs to TfL is actually made
through "London Councils", which is the local government association
for London, who manage the concessionary travel scheme on behalf of
the Boroughs.)

Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made
no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I
doubt
very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of
my
wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see
it
was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out
of
my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite
happy
with that.

My understanding is that at present the amount of concessionary travel
that happens on London's bus network is actually assessed by surveys
done by TfL in association with London Councils, rather than as a
result of feedback from button presses on the bus ticket machine.
Indeed I don't think (though couldn't say for certain) there's a
specific button that gets pressed to register an ENCTS pass is
presented - I *think* it's just the generic 'TfL pass' button. (If
you're quick you might be able to see what is shown on the ticket
machine's LCD display - "LRT pass" is I think still the generic
description associated with this.)

As and when the smartcard readers on London's buses are upgraded to be
ITSO compatible (as at present they can only read 'Oyster-type'
cards), then TfL will be able to require ENCTS pass holders to 'touch-
in' just like Oyster card users, and with London Councils will be able
to analyse data for concessionary travel usage and patterns far more
precisely. But we're not there yet.

With regards to the contractual payments made to the actual bus
operator by TfL for running the service, then this won't have anything
to do with how many passengers were travelling using concessionary
passes. TfL pays bus operators on a broadly gross cost basis under a
scheme called "Quality Incentive Contracts", under which TfL takes the
full revenue risk and operators don't keep any of the farebox takings.
As you can see, this element is very different to the deregulated bus
world outside London.

Incidentally, if you wish to know more about how things operate in
London, then TfL produced this primer document entitled "London"s Bus
Contracting and Tendering Process" which outlines it all - see (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/businessan...ing-feb-09.pdf
or via http://tinyurl.com/a7ar39

Thank you one and all.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 15, 6:56*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Graham Harrison
writes

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus
using that pass, who pays?

The London boroughs. In the same way that if I used my London Freedom
pass in Somerset, then Somerset County Council pay (although local
authorities get quite a substantial government grant towards the
cost).

It's your local District Council in Somerset that pays, not Somerset
County Council. The grant formula is seriously problematic. Apart from
areas with lots of visitors mentioned below, it also means that councils
with few bus services get far more money than they need (which they can
and do spend elsewhere) and transport hubs of all sorts get clobbered. One
of the worst hit is Chesterfield, hardly a tourist honeypot but a major
bus hub for surrounding districts.

Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt
to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very
much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of
my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him
to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. * Oh and I
didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and
he seemed quite happy with that.

In London, the London Boroughs agree a lump sum with TfL (£251 million
for the current year, of which the bus element is £188.6 million).

This payment covers the use of both Freedom passes and National
Concessionary Permits throughout the area. I imagine that it is
reckoned that use of National bus passes within London roughly
balances the use of Freedom passes outside of London, so there is no
clearing house system of passing relatively small amounts of money
between councils for "out of area" use of passes.

AIUI there isn't any sort of 'clearing house' system in operation
anywhere in England - local authorities have to stump up for ENCTS
pass usage in their area regardless of where the pass holder comes
from and there's no system of recompense from that pass holders own
local authority.

The only clearing house system is between the London Boroughs, AIUI. I
don't know how the London costs are divided between them, though.

I'm no expert at all but I understand this led to problems in tourist/
well visited areas, an example that was cited being Blackpool where
lots of non-locals were making use of the free concessionary travel,
with Blackpool Council being landed with the bill. I think things were
tweaked so local authorities in areas where this happened (such as
Blackpool) get more money from the DfT to help them out. (Not a
clearing house system, more a recognition of need/demand.) Others here
will be far more expert on all this.

It's a surprising selection of councils that have been hit by the funding
formula. Cambridge is a member of the million pound club, a number of
small authorities which have been hit with unfunded expenditure increases
of over a £ million.

While that is a relatively small amount alongside a London Borough or big
city budget in the hundreds of millions, it's a huge proportion of the
total Council Tax income of a place like Cambridge whose net revenue
budget is only about £15 million.

Worse still, this problem was quite foreseeable before the national scheme
started. The last Government did announce changes to improve the grant
distribution but that led to hysterical claims of cuts to concessionary
travel from London Boroughs.

I've always assumed that the National Concessionary Permit scheme
works similarly outside of London - local councils agree a lump sum
with the bus operator(s) concerned. No doubt this is verified by means
of sampling, but I doubt that it would be worth collecting data on
every individual journey in order to calculate the precise sums
involved.

Haha! Bus companies try to get away with as much as they can. It's a big
part of their income in some places now.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

As and when the smartcard readers on London's buses are upgraded to be
ITSO compatible (as at present they can only read 'Oyster-type'
cards), then TfL will be able to require ENCTS pass holders to 'touch-
in' just like Oyster card users, and with London Councils will be able
to analyse data for concessionary travel usage and patterns far more
precisely. But we're not there yet.

Even when bus smartcard readers are ITSO compatible that won't really help
as it won't define how far the users are travelling, the main problem
outside London in apportioning costs. However, as London's buses have a
flat fare scheme anyway, that may not matter.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote on 16 June 2010 11:35:21 ...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

I'm no expert at all but I understand this led to problems in tourist/
well visited areas, an example that was cited being Blackpool where
lots of non-locals were making use of the free concessionary travel,
with Blackpool Council being landed with the bill. I think things were
tweaked so local authorities in areas where this happened (such as
Blackpool) get more money from the DfT to help them out. (Not a
clearing house system, more a recognition of need/demand.) Others here
will be far more expert on all this.

It's a surprising selection of councils that have been hit by the funding
formula. Cambridge is a member of the million pound club, a number of
small authorities which have been hit with unfunded expenditure increases
of over a £ million.

While that is a relatively small amount alongside a London Borough or big
city budget in the hundreds of millions, it's a huge proportion of the
total Council Tax income of a place like Cambridge whose net revenue
budget is only about £15 million.

Worse still, this problem was quite foreseeable before the national scheme
started. The last Government did announce changes to improve the grant
distribution but that led to hysterical claims of cuts to concessionary
travel from London Boroughs.

The hysteria arose because the government cut the grant that it pays to
London to cover free travel by non-London pass holders by £29M after the
council budgets for 2010-11 had been set in outline. Thus councils were
faced with last-minute budgeting changes in order to meet their promises
(which many had already made) of no council tax increase. There was
never any real threat to the Freedom Pass, but hinting that there might
be ensured that the government's last-minute change became fully visible
to the public.

In fact, the expected deluge of pass-holders on the capital as a result
of the English concessionary travel scheme has not materialised. Even
with the reduced grant, the London boroughs are not out of pocket on
that particular deal, though to be fair they would claim that they are
well out of pocket in many other areas where central government have
imposed unfunded extra requirements.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In article Of6Sn.61552$yA.40359@hurricane,
(Richard J.) wrote:

The hysteria arose because the government cut the grant that it
pays to London to cover free travel by non-London pass holders by
£29M after the council budgets for 2010-11 had been set in outline.
Thus councils were faced with last-minute budgeting changes in
order to meet their promises (which many had already made) of no
council tax increase. There was never any real threat to the
Freedom Pass, but hinting that there might be ensured that the
government's last-minute change became fully visible to the public.

In fact, the expected deluge of pass-holders on the capital as a
result of the English concessionary travel scheme has not
materialised. Even with the reduced grant, the London boroughs are
not out of pocket on that particular deal, though to be fair they
would claim that they are well out of pocket in many other areas
where central government have imposed unfunded extra requirements.

Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from
this scheme. Not hysteria but reality.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 17:34:28
on Wed, 16 Jun 2010, remarked:

Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from
this scheme. Not hysteria but reality.

It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably?
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
17:34:28 on Wed, 16 Jun 2010, remarked:

Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from
this scheme. Not hysteria but reality.

It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably?

I doubt it. The pattern of affected councils is pretty all-party but the
changes were brought in by the last government which, to be fair
eventually realised its mistake.

--
Colin Rosenstiel