---quote---
All trains on the London Underground should be driverless, according
to the Conservative group on the London Assembly.

In a proposal to the mayor, the Tories claim it would save about £141m-
a-year in wages and prevent strike action.
---/quote---

BBC News online story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10332333.stm

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

On Jun 17, 11:00*am, "Ian F." wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

But the computers could be programmed to shut the doors perfectly to
miss connections. ;-)

Being serious for a millisecond the bit that the paper does not
mention is the cost of having to provide full height or half height
platform edge doors if the trains were to be fully driverless - i.e.
like the Singapore North East line or VAL systems. I think the half
height solution is being deployed in Paris and also in Japan and in
Singapore on the older lines whereas Singapore has PEDs on the newest
lines like the Circle and North East lines. MTR in Hong Kong has
retrofitted a lot of places with PEDs but not sure if that covers the
few open air / viaduct stations there.

Given the long standing propensity for Londoners to "chance their
arm" (literally) in leaping through closing tube doors there would be
a huge culture change needed if trains were to go fully driverless
rather than DLR style. Given the systems are much newer in other
countries there is no long standing "misbehaviour" to deal with.
There are also interesting issues like curved platforms in London
which make CCTV monitoring harder as well as how you deal with the
physical installation of PEDs or similar.

I'm not in the habit of giving credence to Mr Crow but I think an
interesting debate could follow on as to Londoners' attitudes to
driverless tube trains etc. A lot of research shows that passengers
like a visible staff presence on trains and in stations - hence the
staffing strategy on London Overground. Past experience has suggested
that some "safety based" strikes or disputes garnered some public
support. It looks a bit like Mr Crow is trying to do the same here.

I note that the previously seamless connections at Poplar on DLR are
now not quite so seamless with trains departing just as others arrive
or the "RTD" message beeping on one train before it does on the
opposite one thus shortening interchange times. I guess the much more
intensive service levels means every second counts in keeping to
schedule.

--
Paul C
via Google

On 17 June, 11:32, Paul wrote:
On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.

On 17 June, 13:18, MIG wrote:
On 17 June, 11:32, Paul wrote:





On 17 June, 11:00, "Ian F." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

I suspect Bob Crow's analysis - that this is a bit of kite-flying - is
probably on the money.

How could we ever have driverless trains? There'd be no one to shut the
doors at Kennington just as you're rushing to change trains from the Bank to
Charing Cross platform.

Ian

Or at Finsbury Park when you want to change from the Piccadilly line
to the Victoria line. Mind you I am sure that the line controllers
could achieve the same with judicious use of CCTV cameras.

Bottom line is, you can't very well have staffless (which is what it
really means) trains without platform edge doors, although I am not
entirely certain of their efficacy.

An anorak string with a large bobble, of the kind that got a boy
killed in the Piccadilly a few years ago, might be able to get trapped
between both the train doors and the platform doors without detection,
although a person would presumably just be slammed into the latter
rather than dragged under the train.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station. Inside the trains whereby you can press a button and
speak to the line controller. In addition there are mobile patrols of
security staff ("Prevention - Transports") who provide a visible
presence at stations, and keep all the tramps, drunks and
troublemakers out of the way. There are also team of Revenue
Protection Inspectors.

Not sure that such a system would work in London, though. For one
thing, safety regulations after the Kings Cross fire would not permit
unstaffed stations undergound, and having unstaffed stations would be
an open invitation to Al-Qaeda to try a repeat of 7/7.

On 17/06/2010 14:50, Paul wrote:

The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station.

What stops the monitor monitors from going on strike every time the
World Cup is on?

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:16:46 -0700 (PDT)
Paul Corfield wrote:
I'm not in the habit of giving credence to Mr Crow but I think an
interesting debate could follow on as to Londoners' attitudes to
driverless tube trains etc. A lot of research shows that passengers
like a visible staff presence on trains and in stations - hence the
staffing strategy on London Overground. Past experience has suggested
that some "safety based" strikes or disputes garnered some public
support. It looks a bit like Mr Crow is trying to do the same here.

The problem with the deep level tube is that evacuation is difficult. You
need a member of staff around. Much as I can't stand Bob Crowe I'm with him
on this one - I personally wouldn't be happy travelling on a completely
unstaffed train. If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

B2003

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
Paul wrote:
The metro in Lille is completely automatic, but is monitored by CCTV
at every station. Inside the trains whereby you can press a button and
speak to the line controller. In addition there are mobile patrols of

Also the tunnels are double track and quite large so once the train doors were
open escaping from the train would be a fairly simple process. Not so in
a deep level tube train.

B2003

On 17/06/2010 15:22, d wrote:

If the driver just because train captain DLR style that
would be fine however.

How would that help anything? You'd still have to pay them, and cut the
service if they go on strike.

Do tube strikes cause an increase in deaths on the road? Would running
the trains unmanned when the drivers are on strike be safer than cutting
the service?