On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:



On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)


An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

BTN

On Jul 28, 2:14*pm, MIG wrote:

New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

Not actually true. *There's a large flow of students to Goldsmiths,
for example, some of them finding cheap lodgings in places like
Hackney and Whitechapel.


My point is that New Cross Gate is so close anyway, it's not a unique
selling point of New Cross.

If I was heading to Goldsmiths or anywhere else in the vicinity, I'd
get on the first train and wouldn't care if it was New Cross or New
Cross Gate. What is the extra walking time? 6-7 minutes max?


As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Bollox. *Why should people at St Johns lose their service to central
London? *Leave St Johns alone and don't believe the stupid myths. *By
the way, nothing ever stops at Watford Junction because my regular
train doesn't.


St. Johns is (marginally) my nearest station, but I never use it to
get to central London. Lewisham is close by if I want to get to London
Bridge, Charing X or Cannon St etc. Elverson Road DLR is close by for
getting to Canary Wharf or Bank.

I don't agree that providing services to the same destination from
starting points all very close together, while leaving other
destinations almost unreachable is a good basis for a transport
policy.

If St. John's station took me to different places, I might actually
start using the station. As it is, it takes me to the same places I
could get to from Lewisham, but typically with a much longer wait,
hence my non-use.


Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

But there would need to be paths and a suitable track arrangement (see
my other post).


Yeah, it's not gonna happen. So many other things will snaffle up the
funding.

BTN

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:
If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Leaisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockly Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?


Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

BTN

On 3 Aug, 12:10, SirBenjamin wrote:
On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:



On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

BTN

There were platforms at Wandsworth Road on the Southeastern tracks.
They closed in 1916.

On Aug 3, 12:31*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Lewisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockley Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

It's very (very) easy to look at a map and talk about building
interchanges where lines cross, but actually building such
interchanges is very (very) costly. To say that the "philosophy" of LO
is to "avoid useful interchanges" is just daft - the way things are
now is a legacy of how the railways developed.

On 3 Aug, 13:21, Mizter T wrote:
On Aug 3, 12:31*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:



On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to Lewisham,
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open Brockley Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

Yep, a Brockley interchange would be very useful.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the London Overground appears to be
to avoid useful interchanges unless someone else pays for them.

North of Brockley, the line cross the London Bridge - Greenwich line,
with no interchange, there then follow non-interchances with the main
lines into Fenchurch and Liverpool streets and the central line in
shoreditch.

Going around the NLL, there are something like six lines crossed
without interchanges between Dalston and Willesdon junction.

Only on the WLL portion has real progress been made, with the stations
at Shepherds Bush and West Brompton, and one of those only happened
because Westfield paid for it.

It's very (very) easy to look at a map and talk about building
interchanges where lines cross, but actually building such
interchanges is very (very) costly. To say that the "philosophy" of LO
is to "avoid useful interchanges" is just daft - the way things are
now is a legacy of how the railways developed.

East Brixton station was only a stone's throw from Loughborough
Junction (which itself had platforms on the Denmark Hill tracks, and
the disused tracks towards Brixton. The current Brixton itself had
platforms on the Southeastern tracks towards Denmark Hill.

On Aug 3, 12:10*pm, SirBenjamin wrote:

On Jul 30, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 4:54*pm, MIG wrote:

On 30 July, 15:07, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 30, 2:28*pm, wrote:

If it's not practical to provide East London Line service to [Lewisham],
how about he suggestion I made previously to e-open [Brockley] Lane
station, so at least it could be reached by one change there?

In terms of any cost-benefit analysis, the possible re-opening of
Brockley Lane wouldn't come in anywhere even remotely near the top of
a 'dream schemes' list for transport improvements in London I'm
afraid.

Somewhat further up that hypothetical list would be an improvement to
the half-hourly Victoria-Dartford service that uses that line -
currently it's Mon-Sat only, ends early at around 8pm (and starts a
little late too).

Those heading to Lewisham can also use the bus from either NX or NXG
to get there, or if coming from points north on the ELL could switch
to the DLR at Shadwell for Lewisham.

Opening a station at Brixton on that route would be more useful, but
also ain't gonna happen.

Well quite - a high-level Brixton station (on the Atlantic / South
London line) would be rather higher up that hypothetical wish list,
but it wasn't really on the agenda during the supposed times of plenty
so it ain't got much chance of happening any time soon.

(Though the sight of four London Overground ELL trains an hour
floating over Brixton might provide a small degree of impetus to the
idea that a station there - serving both ELL and Vic-Dartford trains -
might be a good idea. The problem is the large degree of dosh that
would be needed to make it happen. Oh well.)

An improved service on the lewisham line via peckham rye that stopped
at Clapham high street / Clapham North would be higher up my personal
wishlist.

It'd be great, yes - it's (remotely) possible that the Dartford-
Victoria (via Lewisham) trains might also stop at Clapham High Street
and Wandsworth Rd when the South London Line (Victoria-London Bridge)
service is withdrawn (and ELLX phase 2 to Clapham Junction starts).


At the moment, getting from Lewisham to Tooting just seem
conspiratorially difficult.

It's a bit of a *******, no doubt.


The Dartford-Victoria via Lewisham service only runs every half hour,
and you can change at Peckham Rye, only for the Sutton trains from
London bridge to non-stop there a few minutes later. I don't
understand why some journeys of only a few miles need to be so
difficult.

Well, there's Lewisham to Denmark Hill (on the aforementioned
Southeastern service), then the South London Line from Denmark Hill
(same platform) to Clapham High Street, then the Northern line from
Clapham North. Under the current timetable, from Lewisham to Clapham
HS the connection at Denmark Hill is good - just five minutes wait on
the same platform for the SLL train (that's *if* things are all
running to time - but if the train from Lewisham is late, the half-
hourly SLL connection could well be missed).

Going the other way however it's no good - a wait of over twenty
minutes at Denmark Hill (though I spose it's not the worst place to be
stuck as there's a good pub on top of the station!).

My only other idea was to wonder if you were anywhere near Crofton
Park, and take a train to Elephant & Castle then change for a train to
Tooting - but the timetables aren't friendly to that idea, as there's
a lengthy wait at the Elephant - so lengthy in fact that one journey
planner actually suggests changing at Blackfriars (maybe the planner
knows there's no nice pub at E&C to while away your time at whilst you
wait!).

But otherwise it's the route I'm sure you take - train to London
Bridge, Northern line from there down to Tooting.

(Tried cycling it? It's a good way of dealing with frustrating
journeys such as this one.)

On Jul 15, 2:19*pm, eastender wrote:

In article
,
*Mizter T wrote:

Also, if one is heading east on the Jubbly, then going to Canada Water
would be preferred choice rather than going all the way in to London Bridge
and back out again. And it's not just people who work at Canary Wharf
who might be heading east.

Yes the interchange is easy but as my wife knows - she works in Canary
Wharf - actually getting on the Jubilee is a different matter.

At peaks times, yes, the Jubilee is crammed solid (best to head via
Shadwell and the DLR instead), but outside of peak times it's quite do-
able. (And there are all sorts of journeys that don't happen at peak
times, or at least not at the height of the peak.)

On 3 Aug, 12:19, SirBenjamin wrote:
On Jul 28, 2:14*pm, MIG wrote:



New Cross ELL doesn't exist to serve a local population (given how
close New Cross Gate and other stations are). It exists to turn trains
around for operational reasons.

Not actually true. *There's a large flow of students to Goldsmiths,
for example, some of them finding cheap lodgings in places like
Hackney and Whitechapel.

My point is that New Cross Gate is so close anyway, it's not a unique
selling point of New Cross.

If I was heading to Goldsmiths or anywhere else in the vicinity, I'd
get on the first train and wouldn't care if it was New Cross or New
Cross Gate. What is the extra walking time? 6-7 minutes max?





As I understand it, New Cross ELL is essentially a third platform at
New Cross Gate, used for terminating/reversing trains - at least
that's how TfL see it.

However... if the thinking around the purpose of New Cross ELL could
be changed, then extending the line would open up all sorts of
possibilities.

The biggest obstacle would probably be capacity at New Cross if it
became a through service, requiring two dedicated ELL platforms. But
once this is overcome, an extension to Lewisham could mean that South
Eastern trains don't need to call at St. John's, so that could become
a dedicated ELL station.

Bollox. *Why should people at St Johns lose their service to central
London? *Leave St Johns alone and don't believe the stupid myths. *By
the way, nothing ever stops at Watford Junction because my regular
train doesn't.

St. Johns is (marginally) my nearest station, but I never use it to
get to central London. Lewisham is close by if I want to get to London
Bridge, Charing X or Cannon St etc. Elverson Road DLR is close by for
getting to Canary Wharf or Bank.

I don't agree that providing services to the same destination from
starting points all very close together, while leaving other
destinations almost unreachable is a good basis for a transport
policy.

If St. John's station took me to different places, I might actually
start using the station. As it is, it takes me to the same places I
could get to from Lewisham, but typically with a much longer wait,
hence my non-use.

6 tph evenly spaced to (LondonBridgen)Cannon Street daytime Mondays to
Saturdays, 2 tph to (LondonBridgen)Charing Cross late evenings and
Sundays. A lot better than fifteen to twenty years ago, which may
have shaped some memories, but the main issue then was the weekend
closure.

Lewisham offers Charing Cross and Victoria during the day, but both
with effectively a half-hourly service. Before the December change
there were 6 tph to Charing Cross, flighted to leave 23-minute gaps.
Now it's 4 tph with the a similar gap.


Beyond Lewisham it could perhaps take over the Bromley North branch.
That would be a good little route. Currently getting from Lewisham
onto the southbound ELL is hugely inconvenenient. Through services
would mean one fewer change and much improved journey times.

But there would need to be paths and a suitable track arrangement (see
my other post).

Yeah, it's not gonna happen. So many other things will snaffle up the
funding.

BTN- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -