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Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
I only visit London occasionally, but seems to me from the odd glimpse of
the Underground I get every couple of months that it's going downhill fast. Am I just seeing the bad bits, or is this generally true? Took a Circle train a couple of weeks ago and it was a complete pig-sty - covered in graffiti, knee-deep in fast food wrappers (not to mention the actual fast food) etc., and this was at 12.30pm. I'm deeply cynical about the whole privatisation thing, so this obviously colours my views. It no doubt looks like a wonderful idea on paper to the Treasury economists with their theoretical models of how the world works. Doesn't work in practice because people are greedy, inefficient and generally behave in ways that no model can, er, model. (Just like that other brilliant piece of economist's thinking: Marxism). I'd be fascinated to know, for example, how many people are now involved in running the tube, including all the private sector companies, lawyers, accountants, public relations types etc.. I'd be prepared to bet that the number of those on 6 figure 'packages' (including directors, non-execs (pro-rated), etc etc.) has gone through the roof compared with the previous arrangements. Summary: it wasn't broke before, it was lunacy to try to 'fix' it like this. Quote: for every economist, there's an equal and opposite economist. Phew, glad I got that off my chest. Pip pip Andrew |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:30:48 -0000, "nzuri" wrote:
I only visit London occasionally, but seems to me from the odd glimpse of the Underground I get every couple of months that it's going downhill fast. Am I just seeing the bad bits, or is this generally true? Took a Circle train a couple of weeks ago and it was a complete pig-sty - covered in graffiti, knee-deep in fast food wrappers (not to mention the actual fast food) etc., and this was at 12.30pm. I'm not sure about the privatisation thing myself, but it's the pax who create the rubbish - not LU. If they weren't so f##king lazy they'd hang on to it until they found a bin - irrespective of how long that took :-( -- ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø Please reply to the group Replies to this address will bounce! ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"nzuri" wrote in message
I only visit London occasionally, but seems to me from the odd glimpse of the Underground I get every couple of months that it's going downhill fast. Am I just seeing the bad bits, or is this generally true? Took a Circle train a couple of weeks ago and it was a complete pig-sty - covered in graffiti, knee-deep in fast food wrappers (not to mention the actual fast food) etc., and this was at 12.30pm. I'm deeply cynical about the whole privatisation thing, so this obviously colours my views. It no doubt looks like a wonderful idea on paper to the Treasury economists with their theoretical models of how the world works. Doesn't work in practice because people are greedy, inefficient and generally behave in ways that no model can, er, model. (Just like that other brilliant piece of economist's thinking: Marxism). I'd be fascinated to know, for example, how many people are now involved in running the tube, including all the private sector companies, lawyers, accountants, public relations types etc.. I'd be prepared to bet that the number of those on 6 figure 'packages' (including directors, non-execs (pro-rated), etc etc.) has gone through the roof compared with the previous arrangements. Summary: it wasn't broke before, it was lunacy to try to 'fix' it like this. Quote: for every economist, there's an equal and opposite economist. It's too early to say how it will work out long-term, but as an occasional user, it seems to me that the Tube has become slightly less reliable day-to-day since the PFI scheme came in. However, as it had been running in shadow form for some time before then, the current poor performance is probably the result of problems that pre-date the actual switchover. Overall, I think it's almost inevitable that fracturing the organisation in this way will increase costs, just as it did with BR (if only to pay for the extra legal agreements that manage the inter-company interfaces). It certainly isn't likely to help safety, though I suspect the two recent derailments are almost certainly due to standards that have been falling for some time and not as a result of PFI. But, of course, every cloud has a silver lining -- the previously loss-making WS Atkins is now doing rather well, thanks to the PFI deal: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...098527,00.html Good news for Atkins shareholders, bad news for Londoners and British taxpayers, I guess. I wonder, are Atkins Labour party donors? Was it "broken" before and did it need fixing? Probably yes, because the Tube had been suffering from low investment and bad management for a long, long time. But was this the right solution? I don't think so, and I imagine that most people outside the Treasury and the PFI contractors doubt it as well. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Nigel Pendse wrote:
I agree with most of what you say, but not this bit ... I suspect the two recent derailments are almost certainly due to standards that have been falling for some time and not as a result of PFI. True for Hammersmith, but there is no evidence that the Camden Town derailment was due to falling standards. At present the cause looks like a system design weakness not previously understood (where system = track + train). -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
I'm not sure about the privatisation thing myself, but it's the pax
who create the rubbish - not LU. If they weren't so f##king lazy they'd hang on to it until they found a bin - irrespective of how long that took :-( Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) If only we did like Singapore for ex - NO litter Eating or Drinking - apart from YOBS doing grafitti - the Burgerless carriage may encourage people to look after it more? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
only meee wrote:
I'm not sure about the privatisation thing myself, but it's the pax who create the rubbish - not LU. If they weren't so f##king lazy they'd hang on to it until they found a bin - irrespective of how long that took :-( Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) If only we did like Singapore for ex - NO litter Eating or Drinking - apart from YOBS doing grafitti - the Burgerless carriage may encourage people to look after it more? Going back some years there were two letters in the Standard on this subject either on the same day or within a few days. The first was from someone who passed through Victoria LU station having arrived on the first train and said "It shone like a new pin". They returned late in the evening from somehwere out in the country and the same station looked like a pigsty. They came to the relaisation that "It is the passengers who make the Underground dirty". The second letter was from a Dover - Calais ferry passenger. They used the toilets upon boarding and said they were immaculate. The person then used the same toilets just before disembarking and found them in a disgusting state. The comment was, "Come on BR you can do better". (The ferry operator was then Sealink of which BR was a part. I did say it was some years ago.) |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Thanks all - interesting comments. I suspect cognitive dissonance (see
http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm) has a big part to play in the implementation of policies like the LUL PFI (and, for that, matter, the decision to back the Bush invasion of Iraq). Once the powers that be decided to adopt the policy, they screened out all the evidence that it would probably be a bad decision in the long term, otherwise there's too much 'dissonance'. The likes the SRA still maintain that rail privatisation was a 'good thing'. I doubt, however, that anyone will ever get any kind of fix on the overall real costs: indeed, the aforementioned cognitive dissonance would virtually prevent them from doing so. And no, I'm not connected with the industry in any way at all (apart from being an occasional user) - just an interested observer. Onwards and upwards! Andrew |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
In article , only meee wrote:
Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? At least then people would have somewhere other than the floor/seats to put their rubbish... Niklas -- "The 2 minute silence will begin when the fire alarm is activated in all buildings." -- Internal e-mail at my place of employment. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Niklas Karlsson wrote:
In article , only meee wrote: Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? At least then people would have somewhere other than the floor/seats to put their rubbish... But you'd need a bin by every set of doors to be effective. I'd rather have the standing room. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
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Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"Robin May" wrote in message
. 1.4... (Niklas Karlsson) wrote the following in: Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? Yes. Terrorism. Presumably the 465s and 466s that South Eastern run are better targets, then. I see that they have bins just by the doors. -- Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society http://www.omnibussoc.org E-mail: URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"Robin May" wrote in message . 1.4... (Niklas Karlsson) wrote the following in: In article , only meee wrote: Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? Yes. Terrorism. What about clear bins? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Robin May wrote in message .1.4...
(Niklas Karlsson) wrote the following in: In article , only meee wrote: Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? Yes. Terrorism. As we have seen recently terrorists are more likely to blow themselves up with a bomb in their coats than bother to hide one in a bin. This terrorism excuse might have been valid back in the 70s and 80s when the IRA were doing their stuff in london but it seems to me than nowadays its just used as an excuse to save money not having bins and paying people to empty them. You can hardly blame people for dropping stuff if they can't even find a bin in a station these days never mind on a train. B2003 |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Robin May wrote in message .1.4...
(Niklas Karlsson) wrote the following in: In article , only meee wrote: Once boarded a "First train" early in the morn and went just two stops and noticed where the only other person had sat was a fresh Banana skin after he alighted - left for the cleaners and other passengers. and that was about 5.30AM. Most people see the tube trains as a dumping ground as well as a moving restaurant (19 hrs a day) Is there anything stopping LU from putting a few bins in the carriages? Yes. Terrorism. That of course is a load of rubbish. Just like the problem. The problem is that if you have bins they have to be emptied occassionaly. And with the large amounts of people using the tube most and the fact most of them would put their rubbish in the bin means that they would have to be emptied very regular not just when they taken out of service. Because London Underground has to by law provide at least 3 people doing nothing at ticket gates as well as 2 people on platforms doing nothing and not to mention the many thousands of staff it has to employ across the network to sit in the infomation kiosk reading The Sun (Obviously News Of The World on Sundays) sadly it does not have the resources in order to employ people (or pay for a contractor to screw London Underground out of loads of money for doing a rubbish job and then not bother to do anything about the contractor) to empty bins then it must of course cry about terrorism meaning they can't put bins on stations or on trains. And you commuters must take your rubbish home with you and if the trains and stations are covered in rubbish and grattifi and attract rats then its not their fault. Its them horrible commuters who insit on bringing newspapers to read. The threat of terrorism isn't going to vanish because there are no bins on stations. Here is a radical approach to Central London deep underground station and train cleaniness. Instead of having idle Startion Assistants sitting around stations all day. Outside of rush hours having them cleaning the stations. Get them on a train for a few stops collecting rubbish and then get them on a train back to their station where they work. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
In message , CJG Now
Thankfully Living In The North writes [...] Because London Underground has to by law provide at least 3 people doing nothing at ticket gates as well as 2 people on platforms doing nothing Which law would that be? I need to quote it the very next time I see a manager. and not to mention the many thousands of staff it has to employ across the network to sit in the infomation kiosk reading The Sun (Obviously News Of The World on Sundays) We only ever read the Metro because it's free and on Sundays we read the previous week's copies with the help of the big dictionary that's usually chained up in the supervisor's office, to look up the long words.. sadly it does not have the resources in order to employ people (or pay for a contractor to screw London Underground out of loads of money for doing a rubbish job and then not bother to do anything about the contractor) to empty bins then it must of course cry about terrorism meaning they can't put bins on stations or on trains. And you commuters must take your rubbish home with you and if the trains and stations are covered in rubbish and grattifi and attract rats then its not their fault. No, can't blame the rats; they have rights too. Its them horrible commuters who insit on bringing newspapers to read. Of course! Why didn't I think of that? But who brings the half eaten burgers, beer cans and piles of vomit? Bet it's those evil rats again.. course, it could be those diabolical pigeons! I'm pretty sure they're the ones who make the puddles at the end of our eastbound late at night... The threat of terrorism isn't going to vanish because there are no bins on stations. Here is a radical approach to Central London deep underground station and train cleaniness. Instead of having idle Startion Assistants sitting around stations all day. Outside of rush hours having them cleaning the stations. Get them on a train for a few stops collecting rubbish and then get them on a train back to their station where they work. And put all those GBM cleaners out of work? You are a heartless beast. Don't mind giving it a try though; I've always wanted to have a go with one of those picky-up things they use... (more fun than the sticky-stick in between trains) -- Kat Frogs have it easy. They can eat what bugs them. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
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Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message om... The threat of terrorism isn't going to vanish because there are no bins on stations. Were they got rid of so as to make terrorism vanish? Instead of having idle Station Assistants sitting around stations all day. Outside of rush hours having them cleaning the stations. Why not all day? Alan |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message om... Here is a radical approach to Central London deep underground station and train cleaniness. Instead of having idle Startion Assistants sitting around stations all day. Outside of rush hours having them cleaning the stations. In the dim and distant past, Railmen used to clean the station off-peak and carry out platform duties during the peak. During the "cost effective" driven days on the early ninties railmen were got rid of and contractors were employed to do the cleaning. Some years later, some bright spark realised that trains were being delayed because there was nobody carrying out platform duties so introduced Station Assistant (Train Services) - SATS. Would you like that wheel turned full circle, so you can moan about even more LUL staff being employed, rather than contractors, who are cheaper? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
But who brings the half eaten burgers, beer cans and piles of vomit?
That would be the people who avoid buying a ticket because its unlikely they will be have much problem getting through ticket barriers (if they are opreational) and its unlikely they will be challenged at the ticket barrier or very unlikely they will be asked to see their ticket on the train |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Would you like that wheel turned full circle, so you can moan about even more LUL staff being employed, rather than contractors, who are cheaper? I would like London Underground managers to control staff numbers and duties so that their is an effective use of labour. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
In message , CJG Now
Thankfully Living In The North writes But who brings the half eaten burgers, beer cans and piles of vomit? That would be the people who avoid buying a ticket because its unlikely they will be have much problem getting through ticket barriers (if they are opreational) and its unlikely they will be challenged at the ticket barrier or very unlikely they will be asked to see their ticket on the train You're more than welcome to come and spend a late-shift with me at the weekend and show me how it *should* be done. Of course, I can't guarantee BTP or ambulance response time on a Friday or Saturday night. What a shame you're so far away now; with your grasp of English I might even have allowed you to write up the white-boards..... -- Kat Frogs have it easy. They can eat what bugs them. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message om... Would you like that wheel turned full circle, so you can moan about even more LUL staff being employed, rather than contractors, who are cheaper? I would like London Underground managers to control staff numbers and duties so that their is an effective use of labour. So employing contractors, who clean the stations and trains at a cheaper rate than employing more staff, who are more expensive isn't an effective use of labour? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message That would be the people who avoid buying a ticket because its unlikely they will be have much problem getting through ticket barriers (if they are opreational) and its unlikely they will be challenged at the ticket barrier or very unlikely they will be asked to see their ticket on the train We've done this to death, repeatedly. As a customer, what would you prefer, station staff on hand to assist you, as you've brought a ticket and expect some kind of customer service, rather than find the ticket barrier deserted because some scrote, who doesn't give a damn about police challenging him, let alone a station assistant on thier own, has jumped over the barrier and the station assistant is running after them? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North wrote:
But who brings the half eaten burgers, beer cans and piles of vomit? That would be the people who avoid buying a ticket because its unlikely they will be have much problem getting through ticket barriers (if they are opreational) No it bleeding isn't! Only the other day, I saw well-dressed people on their way to the office (a) eat a banana and leave the peel on the window shelf and (b) eat an apple while going up the escalator and, when at the top, chuck it into a corner. And have seen similar behaviour from a whole range of genders, ethnicities and classes. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
So employing contractors, who clean the stations and trains at a cheaper
rate than employing more staff, who are more expensive isn't an effective use of labour? No..... I mean using existing staff effectively. Having staff at levels which balance a trade off between cost and under-staffing |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message om... So employing contractors, who clean the stations and trains at a cheaper rate than employing more staff, who are more expensive isn't an effective use of labour? No..... I mean using existing staff effectively. Having staff at levels which balance a trade off between cost and under-staffing So you employ someone with a good grasp of the English language and safety related procedures of the railway and contract out the cleaning (as it's not part of the core business) isn't? |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
"Robin Mayes" wrote in message ...
"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in message om... So employing contractors, who clean the stations and trains at a cheaper rate than employing more staff, who are more expensive isn't an effective use of labour? No..... I mean using existing staff effectively. Having staff at levels which balance a trade off between cost and under-staffing So you employ someone with a good grasp of the English language and safety related procedures of the railway and contract out the cleaning (as it's not part of the core business) isn't? Yes. And I would make station staff useful during off-peak times. And the reason contract cleaners are so cheap is because like all other contract companies they look at the number of staff you need to do a job effectively and then half it. Thus instead of a good job being done and it costing a bit more. A crap job is done and their is more money for extra managers |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Dave Newt wrote:
CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North wrote: But who brings the half eaten burgers, beer cans and piles of vomit? That would be the people who avoid buying a ticket because its unlikely they will be have much problem getting through ticket barriers (if they are opreational) No it bleeding isn't! Only the other day, I saw well-dressed people on their way to the office (a) eat a banana and leave the peel on the window shelf and (b) eat an apple while going up the escalator and, when at the top, chuck it into a corner. I prefer to drop my apple core on the bit between the two escalators and watch it whizz down the shaft before flying off the end :-)) |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Stimpy wrote: gratuitous snippage watch it whizz down the shaft before flying off the end :-)) Oooh, missus. |
Is it just me or has the tube gone down the tubes?
Dave Newt wrote:
Stimpy wrote: gratuitous snippage watch it whizz down the shaft before flying off the end :-)) Oooh, missus. fnarr fnarr -- The presence of this sig indicates that I'm under the influence of excess alcohol. Until I'm sober enough to remember to switch this sig file off, please treat the above as merely drunken ranting. I apologise in advance for any offence caused :-) |
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