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I'm in the tunnel
Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all,
according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson-wants-mobile-coverage-on-tube-in-time-for-2012.do Boris Johnson wants mobile coverage on Tube in time for 2012 Pippa Crerar, City Hall Editor 20.09.10 Commuters could use their mobile phones and Blackberries on the Tube by the 2012 Olympics. Boris Johnson is in discussions with the UK's big mobile phone companies to share the £100 million cost of setting up mobile coverage. It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. The Mayor is also understood to be pushing for mobile coverage on Eurostar services. He is nearing an agreement with the five main operators — Vodafone, O2, Orange, T-Mobile and 3 — over the final funding details. However, City Hall insisted that it would not cost commuters or taxpayers a penny. Mr Johnson's predecessor Ken Livingstone also held talks with operators about the scheme but the plans were never realised. While the move is technically possible, project costs have so far been prohibitively high. The Mayor is understood to have taken it upon himself to “bash heads together” in the mobile phone industry to make sure the plan goes ahead this time. Mr Johnson first revealed his plans at the State of London debate in June. But he also said: “There are big technical difficulties. It's very expensive.” |
I'm in the tunnel
[X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile]
On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson-wants-mobile-coverage-on-tube-in-time-for-2012.do Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this. Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only network. Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national networks. I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on the tube. I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders. Am I mistaken? Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? -roy |
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"Roy Badami" wrote in message
[X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile] On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson-wants-mobile-coverage-on-tube-in-time-for-2012.do Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this. Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only network. Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national networks. I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on the tube. I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders. Am I mistaken? Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. |
I'm in the tunnel
On 22/09/10 11:55, Recliner wrote:
I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. I'm almost certain there were at least plans to have it work in the tunnels, because I remember the discussion of leaky feeders at the time. Basically, you run a piece of coax along the tunnel (that's the feeder), and at intervals the shielding is removed from a short length of coax, which causes the feeder to leak RF (i.e. act as an antenna). -roy |
I'm in the tunnel
"Roy Badami" wrote in message
On 22/09/10 11:55, Recliner wrote: I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. I'm almost certain there were at least plans to have it work in the tunnels, because I remember the discussion of leaky feeders at the time. Basically, you run a piece of coax along the tunnel (that's the feeder), and at intervals the shielding is removed from a short length of coax, which causes the feeder to leak RF (i.e. act as an antenna). Yes, I know, but I think their initial plans were less ambitious. I don't know if the close fit between metal bodied tube trains and the mainly metal tunnels would cause any problems with reception. |
I'm in the tunnel
On 22 Sep, 11:55, "Recliner" wrote:
"Roy Badami" wrote in message [X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile] On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson.... Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this. Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only *network. Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national networks. I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on the tube. *I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders. Am I mistaken? *Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? *And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that infrastructure if it has actually been completed. -- Roy |
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On 22/09/2010 11:55, Recliner wrote:
Am I mistaken? Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. There were some stations that had CT2 telepoint (Hutchinson Rabbit, BT Phonepoint, Mercury Callpoint and Zonephone) equipment installed in or near stations. This wasn't compatible with PCN/GSM mobile comms, but might be the original recollection? This was between 1989 and 1994. -- Adrian C |
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"Roy Badami" wrote in message ... On 22/09/10 11:55, Recliner wrote: I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them. I'm almost certain there were at least plans to have it work in the tunnels, because I remember the discussion of leaky feeders at the time. Basically, you run a piece of coax along the tunnel (that's the feeder), and at intervals the shielding is removed from a short length of coax, which causes the feeder to leak RF (i.e. act as an antenna). -roy About ten years ago Orange put leaky feeder in the tunnels on the West coast line out of Euston at least as far as Northampton Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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"Roy Stilling" wrote in message
... On 22 Sep, 11:55, "Recliner" wrote: "Roy Badami" wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that infrastructure if it has actually been completed. Roy If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra, they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use at least 10 years ago. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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In message , at 11:24:29 on
Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Recliner remarked: The Mayor is also understood to be pushing for mobile coverage on Eurostar services. Long overdue. While coverage out in the open in east Kent has improved enormously during the last fifteen years, it's high time they provided coverage in the various (and the iconic) tunnels. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 11:51:44 on Wed, 22
Sep 2010, Roy Badami remarked: Did One2One ever work on the tube No. However, the precursor to Orange, the so-called "Rabbit phones" had coverage in many tube stations. This was extremely useful when making ones excuses to clients as a result of being late because hiccups with the trains. -- Roland Perry |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:29 +0100, "Recliner"
wrote: It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. Even better idea - how about making it data-only? Texting and use of the Internet is not disruptive. Phone calls on a crowded Tube train would be unpleasant. Same with planes, really. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK To reply put my first name before the at. |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:56:56 +0100, "Steve Terry"
wrote: About ten years ago Orange put leaky feeder in the tunnels on the West coast line out of Euston at least as far as Northampton Are they still present? If so that might explain why it is sometimes possible to hold a signal all or most of the way through some of the tunnels. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK To reply put my first name before the at. |
I'm in the tunnel
"Roy Badami" wrote in message ... [X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile] On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson-wants-mobile-coverage-on-tube-in-time-for-2012.do Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this. Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only network. Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national networks. I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on the tube. I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders. Am I mistaken? Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? Sadly you are mistaken, One2One never worked on the tube. The only customer facing mobile telecoms that have ever worked on the LUL deep level tubes was the old Rabbit network which had base stations on a lot of our platforms. I remember my boss being stunned when I demonstrated my Motorola Silverlink handset making calls to our depot at Arnos Grove from the platforms at Hyde Park Corner and Wood Green stations on the Piccadilly line, back in the early nineties before One2One were even online. Of course, that all got knocked on the head when Hutchinson killed Rabbit to roll out Orange. Us tube train drivers were some of the few people that though this was a retrograde step. -- Cheers, Steve To reply change the exclamatory smelly stuff to a well known mobile telecoms company. -- Cheers, Steve To reply change the exclamatory smelly stuff to a well known mobile telecoms company. |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:33:59 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:29 +0100, "Recliner" wrote: It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. Even better idea - how about making it data-only? Texting and use of the Internet is not disruptive. You can make voice calls over a data connection with various voice over IP systems. Phone calls on a crowded Tube train would be unpleasant. I don't find it to be a problem at the North end of the Northern line. It isn't crazy busy but is usually standing room only. The real limiting factor on voice calls will be when the train goes over noisy track work. I'm skeptical that it will happen. There seems to be a suggestion that the mobile phone networks will pay and they will share infrastructure. It sounds like an expensive project which doesn't give a marketing advantage and I don't see it generating a lot of extra revenue. I'd love data on the underground bits of the Northern line but I'm not holding my breath. |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:29 +0100, "Recliner" wrote: It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. Even better idea - how about making it data-only? Texting and use of the Internet is not disruptive. Phone calls on a crowded Tube train would be unpleasant. Same with planes, really. One of my members of staff at Arnos has a mobile that announces in a loud Yoda voice "Mmmm, message from the dark side there is..." whenever he gets a text message. Trust me, texting can be pretty disruptive... -- Cheers, Steve To reply change the exclamatory smelly stuff to a well known mobile telecoms company. |
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In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus "Roy Stilling" wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, "Recliner" wrote: "Roy Badami" wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that infrastructure if it has actually been completed. Roy If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra, they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use at least 10 years ago. Steve Terry ISTR we had this argument somewhile ago and did we came to any conclusion why it wasn't done?.. I mean sound engineering reasons?.. -- Tony Sayer |
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On Sep 22, 6:02*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:24:29 on Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Recliner remarked: The Mayor is also understood to be pushing for mobile coverage on Eurostar services. Long overdue. While coverage out in the open in east Kent has improved enormously during the last fifteen years, it's high time they provided coverage in the various (and the iconic) tunnels. Also the HS1 tunnels have got very little to do with the Mayor. He can encourage and cajole, but he's got not remit to make it happen. So, nice sounding albeit rather vacuous words from Boris - nothing new there then! |
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On Sep 22, 8:33*pm, Neil Williams wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:24:29 +0100, "Recliner" wrote: It would mean Tube passengers could stay in mobile range throughout their journey, a move which could boost the capital's economy, although there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. Even better idea - how about making it data-only? *Texting and use of the Internet is not disruptive. *Phone calls on a crowded Tube train would be unpleasant. Same with planes, really. Excellent - smartphone addicts had better get some sort of tether to attach their wrist to their mobile, as it'll go flying if they're engrossed in some ephemeral network-based nonsense whilst they are blissfully unaware of the swelling crowd that's about to stampede past them at the next station. ;-) |
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On Sep 22, 11:24*am, "Recliner" wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson... Boris Johnson wants mobile coverage on Tube in time for 2012 History lesson... * March 2004 "London tube gets mobile access - London Underground (LU) is in talks with the four main mobile networks to allow mobile access on the Tube network. [...]" http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03...mobile_access/ * June 2005 "London Undergound to trial wireless services - London Underground (LU) looks set to begin mobile phone service trials next year [...] If all goes to plan, trials could kick off next year followed by contract tenders at the beginning of 2007 with commuters finally able to use the service at stations from summer 2008." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/01/wireless_tube/ * March 2009 "TfL cans mobiles on the tube plan - TfL said the technology was available but it was unable to get anyone interested enough to pay to get the kit installed underground." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03...ile_cancelled/ * September 2010 - Boris gets headlines by promising to "bash heads together". * 2012 - Mobile coverage trials happen at three London tube stations (one of which is the spacious Canary Wharf), network operators take fright at the costs of installation? |
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On 22 Sep, 21:21, "Steve Dulieu" wrote:
"Roy Badami" wrote in message ... [X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile] On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. __________ http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson.... Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this. Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only network. Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national networks. I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on the tube. *I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders. Am I mistaken? *Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan that never came to fruition? *And if it did work on the tube, what happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working? Sadly you are mistaken, One2One never worked on the tube. The only customer facing mobile telecoms that have ever worked on the LUL deep level tubes was the old Rabbit network which had base stations on a lot of our platforms. I remember my boss being stunned when I demonstrated my Motorola Silverlink handset making calls to our depot at Arnos Grove from the platforms at Hyde Park Corner and Wood Green stations on the Piccadilly line, back in the early nineties before One2One were even online. Of course, that all got knocked on the head when Hutchinson killed Rabbit to roll out Orange. Us tube train drivers were some of the few people that though this was a retrograde step. But there are isolated places where they work now. In the deep passageways at Hampstead, for example, and a lot of the tunnel towards Bank on the DLR (but not Bank itself). |
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"tony sayer" wrote in message
... In article , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy Stilling" wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, "Recliner" wrote: "Roy Badami" wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that infrastructure if it has actually been completed. Roy If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra, they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use at least 10 years ago. Steve Terry ISTR we had this argument somewhile ago and did we came to any conclusion why it wasn't done?.. I mean sound engineering reasons?.. Tony Sayer Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. It's commercial equivalent "Dolphin" has been an economic failure and went bankrupt. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that infrastructure if it has actually been completed. Roy If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra, they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use at least 10 years ago. Steve Terry ISTR we had this argument somewhile ago and did we came to any conclusion why it wasn't done?.. I mean sound engineering reasons?.. Tony Sayer Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too. Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to match the ERC specification. Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than requiring interworking. |
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Greetings.
In article , Recliner wrote: Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all, according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel. I think the tunnel itself will be enough to make the noisy callers stop. At least on the Central Line, when the train's in the tunnel, you need to shout to be heard by, and strain to hear, a person sitting next to you. I can't imagine it would be possible to carry on a telephone conversation under those conditions, unless you are happy with the entirety of the dialogue being, "What? What did you say? I can't hear you." Regards, Tristan -- _ _V.-o Tristan Miller Space is limited / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- In a haiku, so it's hard (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ To finish what you |
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On Sep 23, 1:12*am, "Steve Terry" wrote:
Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. FYI: O2 sold Airwave to our friends at Macquarie in 2007: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networki...wave-39286784/ |
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"martin" wrote in message
... On Sep 23, 1:12 am, "Steve Terry" wrote: Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. FYI: O2 sold Airwave to our friends at Macquarie in 2007: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networki...wave-39286784/ Which demonstrates the ludicrous amounts of public money wasted, so much so that investment companies bought it. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
... Steve Terry wrote: "tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too. Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to match the ERC specification. That would be the ERC spec that allows Tetra multiplexing at 17.6Hz that the Police Association are litigating for health damage to their officers. A problem that wouldn't exist with GSM Trower report: http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than requiring interworking. Let me guess, you work for Airwave Tetra or TFL Tetra? And Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them. (retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each) http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone. We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of billions to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message
... On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:56:56 +0100, "Steve Terry" wrote: About ten years ago Orange put leaky feeder in the tunnels on the West coast line out of Euston at least as far as Northampton Are they still present? If so that might explain why it is sometimes possible to hold a signal all or most of the way through some of the tunnels. Neil AFAIK, I can't see why Orange would remove them after spending money on installing them. I could hold a conversation from Euston to at least Northampton on my Orange ED50, whilst others on other networks couldn't. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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Steve Terry wrote:
"Rupert wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: "tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too. Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to match the ERC specification. That would be the ERC spec that allows Tetra multiplexing at 17.6Hz that the Police Association are litigating for health damage to their officers. A problem that wouldn't exist with GSM Trower report: http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than requiring interworking. Let me guess, you work for Airwave Tetra or TFL Tetra? And Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Actually I don't and have never done so. However I have been involved in training, supporting and managing 'blue light' and other emergency organisations. So have an appreciation of what is needed and, indeed, provided some input into the requirements spec some time ago for a particular application. In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them. (retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each) http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php Yes, GSM Pro does provide PTT, but there are the well-known shortcomings, as I hope you know. Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone. We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of billions to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network. But GSM isn't the right answer. And _we_ didn't reinvent the wheel. Tetra is an ETSI standard. |
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In uk.transport.london message ,
Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:34:48, Ian Jelf posted: In message , Recliner writes there would almost certainly be some quiet carriages on Underground trains where phones were banned. Oh yeah, that's going to work (and be enforceable), isn't it?! Metallised windows? -- (c) John Stockton, near London. Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, and links. Correct = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (RFC5536/7) Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (RFC5536/7) |
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"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
... Steve Terry wrote: "Rupert wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: "tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and bureaucracy dedicated to it. Dolphin has proved it to be a commercial failure. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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Steve Terry wrote:
snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation. Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and bureaucracy dedicated to it. Dolphin has proved it to be a commercial failure. No, Dolphin has proved to be a commercial failure. There are commercially succesful Tetra networks in a number of countries. I realise you know very little. Perhaps you should Google a bit and develop your understanding. |
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"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation. Of course i understand the speed limitations of GSM, that's why i pointed out the use of GSM on airliners using onboard cells. Maybe you haven't noticed but airliners travel faster than the TGV So which do you think a member of the emergency services would use to make a call on such an airliner, GSM or their Tetra? Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
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Steve Terry wrote:
"Rupert wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation. Of course i understand the speed limitations of GSM, that's why i pointed out the use of GSM on airliners using onboard cells. You have to have the cells onboard and onboard cells are still sparse. Maybe you haven't noticed but airliners travel faster than the TGV So which do you think a member of the emergency services would use to make a call on such an airliner, GSM or their Tetra? Well, the users I represented would use their Airwave handsets to the fixed wing following behind. And, because Tetra has been designed in this way, they would be able to have a talk group with people ahead and behind the plane. Oh, and could have quick call set up. Oh and do this even in the event of riot and civil commotion. Oh and talk directly with other agencies. And quite a lot else besides which I won't go into here coz it won't help |
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In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus "Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: "tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too. Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to match the ERC specification. That would be the ERC spec that allows Tetra multiplexing at 17.6Hz that the Police Association are litigating for health damage to their officers. A problem that wouldn't exist with GSM Trower report: http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf Some really good science there eh;?.... It is believed that during the daytime light going through our eyes passes a message to the pineal glands in the brain which slows down the production of melatonin. At night when no light goes through our eyes the production of melatonin is speeded up. Melatonin is believed to scavenge cancer cells and impurities in our bodies and boost the immune system. If an officer is sleeping in quarters within range of the TETRA transmitter, the microwave radiation is believed to act on the pineal gland and suppress the night-time melatonin to daytime levels; hence the good work of the melatonin at night will be restricted leading to suppression of the immune system. Ummmm .... Wasn't there a female Bobby based in Manchester that claimed that a TETRA radio got her pregnant;?.. Now that would be really interesting to research;!... Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than requiring interworking. Let me guess, you work for Airwave Tetra or TFL Tetra? And Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them. (retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each) http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php These 450 MHz versions?. With PPT I presume?.. Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone. I thought that GSM was well encrypted as it was?.. We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of billions to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network. Are you suggesting that the public shared a security network?.. Steve Terry -- Tony Sayer |
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In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus "Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: "Rupert wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: "tony wrote in message ... In , Steve Terry scribeth thus "Roy wrote in message ... On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote: "Roy wrote in message On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Tetra is a badly conceived and applied standard that should never have existed and only does because of the vast amounts of money and bureaucracy dedicated to it. But quite why?.. Dolphin has proved it to be a commercial failure. Dolphin was never planned properly, never worked as it should have done, and no one understood it and what it could and couldn't do;!;.. Steve Terry -- Tony Sayer |
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In article , Rupert Moss-Eccardt
scribeth thus Steve Terry wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation. Think about that one;?.... -- Tony Sayer |
I'm in the tunnel
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus "Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message ... Steve Terry wrote: snip Well done. How about the actual operational needs. To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't GSM could, GSM is now possible on airliners using cells on the aircraft linked up to satellite or down to ground stations, and GSM is regularly used on sea going Ferries using similar systems. A more practical example is when i was in Hong Kong in 2002 i was using GSM all over their MTR underground railway. Obviously if the public have GSM down there, so did the staff and any emergency services. Translation: Steve Terry doesn't understand the issues. Think why I chose TGV especially, rather than another line. Umm. Perhaps it is to do with the speed of the handset relative to the basestation. Of course i understand the speed limitations of GSM, that's why i pointed out the use of GSM on airliners using onboard cells. Maybe you haven't noticed but airliners travel faster than the TGV Not a lot to do with it really?.. So which do you think a member of the emergency services would use to make a call on such an airliner, GSM or their Tetra? Aircraft radio;)... Steve Terry -- Tony Sayer |
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In article
s.com, martin scribeth thus On Sep 23, 1:12*am, "Steve Terry" wrote: Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers money to O2 Airwave. FYI: O2 sold Airwave to our friends at Macquarie in 2007: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networki...uity-snaps-up- o2-airwave-39286784/ Yea.. The meek shall not inherit the communications earth 'cos the Aussies have it all;!.. -- Tony Sayer |
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