Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

Methinks this thread has degenerated into uk.railway over analysis and
trying to put literal meaning behind words.

EB NB WB SB are merely vague terms in relation to compass directions
but very specific terms of opposing directions of running.

No more emphasis on EB NB SB WB should be taken than on Up and Down -
trains do not literally go Up or go Down.

There is no ore to the LU terms than that.

--
Nick

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Pat Ricroft wrote:

On 28 Sep, 08:13, wrote:
There's also the problem of deciding where in central London the
southbound line say would change from being 'up' (which is normally
but not always TO London) to 'down' - away from London.

Metrolink (trams) get round this by relating everything to the delta
junction at the centre of the network, near Piccadilly Gardens. They
run inbound services as far as the junction. Once through the junction
they become outbound services.

Quite what will happen if they build the proposed secondary line
through the city centre, bypassing the delta junction, is another
matter.

Roundbound?

tom

--
These spoiled youths forget that when they are shaven they look like
boiled potatoes. -- Tara Singh

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

Methinks this thread has degenerated into uk.railway over analysis and
trying to put literal meaning behind words.

EB NB WB SB are merely vague terms in relation to compass directions
but very specific terms of opposing directions of running.

No more emphasis on EB NB SB WB should be taken than on Up and Down -
trains do not literally go Up or go Down.

OTOH, despite the fact that not all posters to this thread are in entire
agreement, I think we've learnt four things (all of which were new to
me, at least). I did know that LUL tracks were generally designated by
compass points rather than as up/down as used on the main railway
network, but I think I've learnt from this thread that:

1. The public signage doesn't always correspond to the designation of
the tracks.

2. The circle line tracks are designated as inner and outer (although
the public signage is based on compass points -- see 1 above).

3. Some lines change designation along their length; others don't, even
if that means their direction may not particularly correspond to their
designation (but see 1 above)

4. (I think) Where lines change designation along their length, they
remain with WIND (West/Inner/North/Down) and OUSE (Outer/Up/South/East)
-- so a Westbound track can change designation to a Northbound track but
not to a Southbound track.

Have I understood right?

-roy

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Roy Badami wrote:

On 28/09/10 10:40, Steve Fitzgerald wrote:
we could call them
direction Fred and direction John for all it matters as long as everyone
knows what we're talking about.

Or perhaps direction 'up' and direction 'down' :-)

No, clearly they should be left and right. After all, if you stand and
look at the tracks, then one is on the left, and the other on the right.
Stands to reason.

tom

--
These spoiled youths forget that when they are shaven they look like
boiled potatoes. -- Tara Singh

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 04:48:57 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be tedjrr
wrote this:-

Did the Midland definitions of up/down remain after grouping,

They remain to this day. Changing designation would be a fraught
task, I can see why it would be put off even if it was thought to be
a good idea.

Lines presumably change designation somewhere in Derby Midland
station. Perhaps there is some sort of object which marks the spot.

There is - milepost zero for the west line is clearly visible at Derby South
Junction.

Regards

Jonathan

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 28/09/10 23:35, Tom Anderson wrote:

No, clearly they should be left and right. After all, if you stand and
look at the tracks, then one is on the left, and the other on the right.
Stands to reason.

direction 'forwards' and 'direction backwards' perhaps? ;-)

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:59:17 +0100, "Martin Rich"
wrote:

Because it's
common in America for one stretch of road to form part of more than one
highway, you'll sometimes see a road which carries more than one number and
more than one direction (I'm not sure if I'm explaining it very well;
perhaps an American could put it better)

Not an American, but I have some experience of their roads ;)

Generally speaking, odd numbered roads are N-S; even numbered E-W. So
I-5 goes from the Canadian border to the Mexican border and 1-90 goes
from Boston in the East to Seattle in the West, etc. etc. In some
places, roads merge then separate but keep their numbering before and
after.

As an example, east of Reno, Nevada, Interstate 80 and Highway 95
share the same road: I-80 East/West is the same piece of road as 95
North/South.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 29/09/10 00:12, Ivor The Engine wrote:
In some
places, roads merge then separate but keep their numbering before and
after.

That happens here, too.

The difference is what happens during. In the UK, the common section
has the number of the most major road (only), leading the minor road(s)
to be discontinuous. In the US (and I think in many parts of Europe?)
the common section bears multiple designations.

-roy

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Sep 28, 11:34*pm, Roy Badami wrote:
Methinks this thread has degenerated into uk.railway over analysis and
trying to put literal meaning behind words.

EB NB WB SB are merely vague terms in relation to compass directions
but very specific terms of opposing directions of running.

No more emphasis on EB NB SB WB should be taken than on Up and Down -
trains do not literally go Up or go Down.

OTOH, despite the fact that not all posters to this thread are in entire
agreement, I think we've learnt four things (all of which were new to
me, at least). *I did know that LUL tracks were generally designated by
compass points rather than as up/down as used on the main railway
network, but I think I've learnt from this thread that:

1. *The public signage doesn't always correspond to the designation of
the tracks.

2. *The circle line tracks are designated as inner and outer (although
the public signage is based on compass points -- see 1 above).


The northern part of the Circle is designated Inner/Outer Rail (from
the junction at Gloucester Road to/from the junction east of Tower
Hill). The southern part is designated East/West bound due to being
the main District route.

3. *Some lines change designation along their length; others don't, even
if that means their direction may not particularly correspond to their
designation (but see 1 above)

4. *(I think) Where lines change designation along their length, they
remain with WIND (West/Inner/North/Down) and OUSE (Outer/Up/South/East)
-- so a Westbound track can change designation to a Northbound track but
not to a Southbound track.

Except the Inner rail becomes the Eastbound track at Gloucester Road
and similarly for the Westbound and Outer. The southern part of the
District, may of course, have alternative names depending on whether
the train is a Circle or District one.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Sep 29, 12:16*am, "Richard J." wrote:
wrote on 28 September 2010 08:13:05 ...

There's also the problem of deciding where in central London the
southbound line say would change from being 'up' (which is normally
but not always TO London) to 'down' - away from London.

Where does the up/down orientation change on Thameslink in central London?

Up and Down swap at the former Farringdon Junction, where the line to
Moorgate used to diverge. Services from the north to Moorgate ran Up
all the way, services to Blackfriars still change designation to Down
at the site of the junction.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Graham Harrison
wrote:
However, it seems that, even "London Transport" refer to Underground
lines by their geographic direction; it's not just the public signs
that say "Northbound" etc. Is that correct? Did they ever use
up/down?

Yes.

Somewhere I have a 1900-ish working timetable for the District Line that
uses Up and Down (from memory, Up was towards Whitechapel).

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , David Hansen
wrote:
I believe up and down were imported from stage coaches.

I was under the impression they came from canals (other terms, like
"lengthman" seem to have done).

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Walter Briscoe
wrote:
Central: EW; flips at Hainault.

However, internally it's "Inner Rail" and "Outer Rail" between
Leytonstone and Woodford via Hainault.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , at 23:46:47 on Tue, 28 Sep
2010, Roy Badami remarked:

direction 'forwards' and 'direction backwards' perhaps? ;-)

They are always announcing "this train will be going forward to X", just
in case any passengers might have expected it to go backwards?
--
Roland Perry

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In message , Graham Harrison
wrote:
However, it seems that, even "London Transport" refer to Underground lines
by their geographic direction; it's not just the public signs that say
"Northbound" etc. Is that correct? Did they ever use up/down?

Yes.

Somewhere I have a 1900-ish working timetable for the District Line that
uses Up and Down (from memory, Up was towards Whitechapel).

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I take it you mean up to Whitechapel from Earls Court etc.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

Roy Badami writes:

2. The circle line tracks are designated as inner and outer (although
the public signage is based on compass points -- see 1 above).

At least while it truly was a circle, would clockwise and anti-clockwise
not have been better designations for the public signage?

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 02:06:44AM -0700, Railsigns.co.uk wrote:
On 28 Sep, 09:48, Pat Ricroft wrote:
On 28 Sep, 08:22, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:12:19 -0700 (PDT), "
I make it a practice to always take an "up" train from Berwick-upon-
Tweed
To where?
To the nearest capital city.
That would be a Down train then.

No, it would be Up. Normal people go Up from Brighton to London, and
Down from York to London. When the journey is clearly north/south, Up
is northbound, and Down is southbound.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

Human Rights left unattended may be removed,
destroyed, or damaged by the security services.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 2010\09\29 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 23:46:47 on Tue, 28 Sep
2010, Roy Badami remarked:

direction 'forwards' and 'direction backwards' perhaps? ;-)

They are always announcing "this train will be going forward to X", just
in case any passengers might have expected it to go backwards?

For half of them, it will go backwards.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 2010\09\29 10:37, Graham Murray wrote:
Roy writes:

2. The circle line tracks are designated as inner and outer (although
the public signage is based on compass points -- see 1 above).

At least while it truly was a circle, would clockwise and anti-clockwise
not have been better designations for the public signage?

They should use "Deasil" and "Withershins" on the Glasgow Subway.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Sep 29, 12:16 am, "Richard J." wrote:
wrote on 28 September 2010 08:13:05 ...

There's also the problem of deciding where in central London the
southbound line say would change from being 'up' (which is normally
but not always TO London) to 'down' - away from London.

Where does the up/down orientation change on Thameslink in central London?

Up and Down swap at the former Farringdon Junction, where the line to
Moorgate used to diverge. Services from the north to Moorgate ran Up
all the way, services to Blackfriars still change designation to Down
at the site of the junction.

-------------

However...

Network Rail published plans to change the designations in January this
year, to come into force April 10.

The up/down line changeover is to be at the north end of the platforms
where the third rail ends. Removal of a signalling interlocking equipment
room at the junction has also led to changes to the signalling areas of
control.

Paul S

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Roy Badami
wrote:
4. (I think) Where lines change designation along their length, they
remain with WIND (West/Inner/North/Down) and OUSE (Outer/Up/South/East)
-- so a Westbound track can change designation to a Northbound track
but not to a Southbound track.

An eastbound train heading for Hainault can transfer to either the Inner
or Outer Rail.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Roy Badami wrote:

On 28/09/10 23:35, Tom Anderson wrote:

No, clearly they should be left and right. After all, if you stand and
look at the tracks, then one is on the left, and the other on the right.
Stands to reason.

direction 'forwards' and 'direction backwards' perhaps? ;-)

'Hither' and 'yon'?

tom

--
to feel an impulse / rising rising / a mess of reason / and kissing eyes

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Roy Badami wrote:
On 28/09/10 23:35, Tom Anderson wrote:
No, clearly they should be left and right. After all, if you stand and
look at the tracks, then one is on the left, and the other on the right.
Stands to reason.

direction 'forwards' and 'direction backwards' perhaps? ;-)

'Hither' and 'yon'?


Surely 'hither' and 'thither'?

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Sep 29, 10:00*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010, Roy Badami wrote:

On 28/09/10 23:35, Tom Anderson wrote:

No, clearly they should be left and right. After all, if you stand and
look at the tracks, then one is on the left, and the other on the right.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On Sep 28, 12:48*pm, tedjrr wrote:
On 28 Sep, 09:01, David Hansen wrote

That would be a problem, though not a great one.
Two of the larger exceptions down south to up and down referring to
London are South Wales, where up is up the valley, and former
Midland Railway lines where up is towards Derby.

Thanks, that's very interesting. *Did the Midland definitions of up/
down remain after grouping, indeed if you travel from Trent jk to
StPan, are you still heading down? *Wasn't the former MS&L line was
"up" into Cleethorpes.

Rgds/Ted
I was told that 'up' direction was defined as being the direction
towards the HQ of the founding railway company. Many happened to be in
London, but hence the example of Derby etc.

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Sep 29, 6:05 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Andy" wrote in message

...
On Sep 29, 12:16 am, "Richard J." wrote:

wrote on 28 September 2010 08:13:05 ...

There's also the problem of deciding where in central London the
southbound line say would change from being 'up' (which is normally
but not always TO London) to 'down' - away from London.

Where does the up/down orientation change on Thameslink in central
London?

Up and Down swap at the former Farringdon Junction, where the line to
Moorgate used to diverge. Services from the north to Moorgate ran Up
all the way, services to Blackfriars still change designation to Down
at the site of the junction.

-------------

However...

Network Rail published plans to change the designations in January this
year, to come into force April 10.

The up/down line changeover is to be at the north end of the platforms
where the third rail ends. Removal of a signalling interlocking equipment
room at the junction has also led to changes to the signalling areas of
control.


Thanks, I'd missed that change. I assume that there is still a mileage
change (58 chains from Moorgate = 0 chains for the line through City
Thamelink) at Farringdon Junction.

I think so, I've had another look at the proposal and mileages seem to be
about the only thing not mentioned...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/network%20code/network%20change/completed%20proposals/thameslink/faringdon%20boundry%20change/ncg12010tlp001%20ncn-farringdon%20interlocking%20commisioning.pdf

Paul

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

I think there is some mis-understanding about WIND and OUSE, sorry if
I introduced it and not made it clear.

The relation between the four parts of each acronym does not mean a
train cannot change from an OUSE direction to a WIND direction or
v.v..

The relation is that whatever rules when working on track apply to to
WB Inner NB or Down trains, and a variation applies to the OUSE group.

The main point is, every LU track has a designation, but not always EB
WB SB NB as was written a long way back upthread.

--
Nick

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Tim Fenton
wrote:
I think that at Euston, the Northbound Bank Branch track is actually
facing south of due west.

It is; a bearing of about 230.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 29/09/2010 00:26, Roy Badami wrote:
On 29/09/10 00:12, Ivor The Engine wrote:
In some
places, roads merge then separate but keep their numbering before and
after.

That happens here, too.

The difference is what happens during. In the UK, the common section
has the number of the most major road (only), leading the minor
road(s) to be discontinuous. In the US (and I think in many parts of
Europe?) the common section bears multiple designations.

-roy
While this is true, the road signs should show both numbers with the
"secondary" route in brackets to show that one can be reached by a turn
off the other. This is the general convention in the UK for all such
cases. A case I saw recently is near Colchester, where the A120 to /
from Harwich crosses the main A12. Both roads share the Colchester
by-pass and the road is shown as A12 (A120), with the first junction you
encounter with the A120 shown as A120 east or A120 west to help those on
the A12 know which one they need to turn at.

This is used for any situation where one road leads to another important
road. The main road which forms the south-eastern boundary of the New
Forest National Park is the A326. If you leave the New Forest on the
A35 from Lyndhurst, signs for the turn onto the A326 show A326 (M27)
(A36), indicating that you can use the A326 to reach the motorway or the
main road to Salisbury (A36).

But road re-numbering schemes can throw all this out. Can someone who
lives round that part of the world explain why if you look on Google
Maps for Sidmouth (I happen to be going there in a couple of weeks), the
road to it from Sidford is shown on the map display as the B3175, but in
the actual camera shots of the junction the road signs say "A375"?

--
- Yokel -

Yokel posts via a spam-trap account which is not read

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Graham Harrison
wrote:
Somewhere I have a 1900-ish working timetable for the District Line
that uses Up and Down (from memory, Up was towards Whitechapel).

Found it. Came into effect 1st May 1901. The page headings a

DOWN TRAINS WEST to EAST and on INNER RAIL of CIRCLE
UP TRAINS EAST to WEST and on OUTER RAIL of CIRCLE

It's also Up from Gloucester Road to HSK via the Cromwell Curve.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

On 28/09/2010 08:59, Chris Tolley wrote:
peter wrote:

I've never understood why the Piccadilly line from Kings Cross to
Cockfosters is described as 'Eastbound', when it patently isn't.
Have you also wondered why the whole system is called "Underground",
when it patently isn't.

The same could be said for the Transport for London franchised part of
the Network Rail system, which is called "London Overground", although a
greater proportion of the "Underground" system is overground than the
"Overground" system is underground.

--
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Yokel posts via a spam-trap account which is not read

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , David Hansen
wrote:
Did the Midland definitions of up/down remain after grouping,

They remain to this day. Changing designation would be a fraught
task, I can see why it would be put off even if it was thought to be
a good idea.

Changes have been made elsewhere. The GCR into Marylebone is an example.

The South Leicestershire was clearly down from Nuneaton, since the
milepost zero is there, yet it is now down *to* Nuneaton.

Lines presumably change designation somewhere in Derby Midland
station. Perhaps there is some sort of object which marks the spot.

The only line that appears to be Up to Derby is that from Birmingham.
Everything else is Down northwards.

Even the Trent East Curve is Down towards Derby and Up towards
Nottingham.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message
,
sidmouth wrote:
I was told that 'up' direction was defined as being the direction
towards the HQ of the founding railway company. Many happened to be in
London, but hence the example of Derby etc.

Each company had its own definition of Up and Down. Often it was Down
from the biggest city, or Down from the headquarters city (see the GCR),
but there was no specific rule or law about it.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Yokel
wrote:
Anywhere on the railway network that you have a triangle of lines, this
issue has to be overcome.

Or loops, and they can be big ones.

It is Down from both St.Pancras and King's Cross heading north, so if
you go between them via Grantham and Nottingham you have to change
direction; in this case it's at Netherfield Junction, just east of the
latter.

Or sometimes there's no obvious reason. The erstwhile Oxford to
Cambridge line is currently Down both ways from Bletchley (presumably
because of its LNWR heritage). That means a train from Oxford to Bedford
(if the gaps were repaired) is Down for the first mile or so, then Up to
the middle of Bletchley flyover, then Down again. (It's also Down from
Aylesbury to Claydon L&NE Junction.)

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message
,
Railsigns.co.uk wrote:
The designations Inner Circle and Outer Circle on the Cathcart Circle
are in addition to the usual Up and Down, not instead of.

This one is unusual in that it's Down on the Inner all the way round.
All lines are Down to Glasgow Central except for the two lines to
Paisley and the west side of the Cathcart Circle.

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Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Graeme
wrote:
The main line use of up/down is not applicable to the UndergrounD

Why not?

so the
geographic system is more appropriate. I believe such useage predates Yerkes
involvement.

I have no evidence to this effect.

In 1901 the District used Up and Down (Up was generally westwards), the
Metropolitan used Up and Down (Up was generally eastwards/southwards),
and the C&SLR used Up and Down (Up was generally northwards).

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On 30/09/10 21:56, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

The South Leicestershire was clearly down from Nuneaton, since the
milepost zero is there, yet it is now down *to* Nuneaton.

Does that mean that mileage now increases in the up direction rather
than in the down direction?

Up/down/northbound/westbound?
 

In message , Roy Badami
wrote:
The South Leicestershire was clearly down from Nuneaton, since the
milepost zero is there, yet it is now down *to* Nuneaton.
Does that mean that mileage now increases in the up direction rather
than in the down direction?

Yes. It's hardly unique - the same is true of part of the ECML.

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On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 00:26:24 +0100, Roy Badami
wrote:

In some
places, roads merge then separate but keep their numbering before and
after.

That happens here, too.

The difference is what happens during. In the UK, the common section
has the number of the most major road (only), leading the minor road(s)
to be discontinuous. In the US (and I think in many parts of Europe?)
the common section bears multiple designations.

Yes, but the point being made is that combined roads in the US also
keep their N/S or E/W designations regardless of true compass bearing.

We don't append the direction to our road numbers, just provide
generic 'The NORTH' or 'The SOUTH', etc. directions at certain
junctions.