wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[original post on uk.transport.london]
[crossposted to uk.railway]

(I've x-posted this to uk.r as I've got a few esoteric questions in
association with it.)

On Oct 5, 5:33 pm, "tim...." wrote:

"Chris Hills" wrote:

I am looking for tickets from Bat & Ball (BBL) to Romford (RMF).
thetrainline.com is offering a travelcard. Although Bat & Ball is
listed on the LU map, it is not shown in any zone nor can I find any
supporting information to say that it is in zones 7-9. What zone is
it, and will a travelcard be accepted there?

It's not in a zone. What you have been offered is an "into" London
Travelcard which is the equivalent of a single return journey to the
zone boundary plus a travecard once you get there.

The ticket does NOT entitle you to make unlimited journeys to/from the
zonalboundary and B&B.

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day return to
London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard. Certainly from
Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be better off buying a London
Terminals day return and using Oyster for their tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody who makes
the journey more than about three times a year would have

tim

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[original post on uk.transport.london]
[crossposted to uk.railway]

(I've x-posted this to uk.r as I've got a few esoteric questions in
association with it.)

On Oct 5, 5:33 pm, "tim...." wrote:

"Chris Hills" wrote:

I am looking for tickets from Bat & Ball (BBL) to Romford (RMF).
thetrainline.com is offering a travelcard. Although Bat & Ball is
listed on the LU map, it is not shown in any zone nor can I find
any supporting information to say that it is in zones 7-9. What
zone is it, and will a travelcard be accepted there?

It's not in a zone. What you have been offered is an "into" London
Travelcard which is the equivalent of a single return journey to
the zone boundary plus a travecard once you get there.

The ticket does NOT entitle you to make unlimited journeys to/from
the zonalboundary and B&B.

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day return
to London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard. Certainly from
Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be better off buying a
London Terminals day return and using Oyster for their tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody who
makes the journey more than about three times a year would have

Even with a railcard where only one return zones 1 & 2 trip is made. That
costs £3.60 on Oyster and £4.30 as an Off Peak Day Travelcard.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[original post on uk.transport.london]
[crossposted to uk.railway]

(I've x-posted this to uk.r as I've got a few esoteric questions in
association with it.)

On Oct 5, 5:33 pm, "tim...." wrote:

"Chris Hills" wrote:

I am looking for tickets from Bat & Ball (BBL) to Romford (RMF).
thetrainline.com is offering a travelcard. Although Bat & Ball is
listed on the LU map, it is not shown in any zone nor can I find
any supporting information to say that it is in zones 7-9. What
zone is it, and will a travelcard be accepted there?

It's not in a zone. What you have been offered is an "into" London
Travelcard which is the equivalent of a single return journey to
the zone boundary plus a travecard once you get there.

The ticket does NOT entitle you to make unlimited journeys to/from
the zonalboundary and B&B.

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day return
to London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard. Certainly from
Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be better off buying a
London Terminals day return and using Oyster for their tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody who
makes the journey more than about three times a year would have

Even with a railcard where only one return zones 1 & 2 trip is made.

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey wasn't
being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as the appropriate
ticket.

That
costs £3.60 on Oyster and £4.30 as an Off Peak Day Travelcard.


You seem somewhat unlucky in your travelcard "excess". From my local
station (about the same distance at Cambridge) the (railcard) difference is
2.65.

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a fixed
amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[original post on uk.transport.london]
[crossposted to uk.railway]

(I've x-posted this to uk.r as I've got a few esoteric questions
in association with it.)

On Oct 5, 5:33 pm, "tim...." wrote:

"Chris Hills" wrote:

I am looking for tickets from Bat & Ball (BBL) to Romford
(RMF). thetrainline.com is offering a travelcard. Although
Bat & Ball is listed on the LU map, it is not shown in any zone
nor can I find any supporting information to say that it is in
zones 7-9. What zone is it, and will a travelcard be accepted
there?

It's not in a zone. What you have been offered is an "into"
London Travelcard which is the equivalent of a single return
journey to the zone boundary plus a travecard once you get
there.

The ticket does NOT entitle you to make unlimited journeys
to/from the zonalboundary and B&B.

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day
return to London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard.
Certainly from Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be better
off buying a London Terminals day return and using Oyster for their
tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody who
makes the journey more than about three times a year would have

Even with a railcard where only one return zones 1 & 2 trip is
made.

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey
wasn't being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as the
appropriate ticket.

I would expect the majority of day travelcard purchasers to make precisely
one return tube journey.

That costs £3.60 on Oyster and £4.30 as an Off Peak Day Travelcard.

You seem somewhat unlucky in your travelcard "excess". From my
local station (about the same distance at Cambridge) the (railcard)
difference is 2.65.

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price varies
hugely and totally lacks transparency.

Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London Terminals
(£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First Group) but
Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Oct 7, 4:36 pm, wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

wrote:

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day
return to London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard.
Certainly from Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be better
off buying a London Terminals day return and using Oyster for their
tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody who
makes the journey more than about three times a year would have

Even with a railcard where only one return zones 1 & 2 trip is
made.

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey
wasn't being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as the
appropriate ticket.

I would expect the majority of day travelcard purchasers to make precisely
one return tube journey.

I reckon a good number make more than just a straightforward return journey
on the Tube when in London. As to the how much travelling within London an
outboundary Travelcard holder from somewhere like Cambridge does, it'd be
interesting to have some figures - I'd guess that TfL and the TOCs might
have some broad estimates, though I'd also guess that any such data would
quite likely be considered commercially confidential.


That costs £3.60 on Oyster and £4.30 as an Off Peak Day Travelcard.

You seem somewhat unlucky in your travelcard "excess". From my
local station (about the same distance at Cambridge) the (railcard)
difference is 2.65.

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price varies
hugely and totally lacks transparency.

It's a commercial decision made by the TOCs - though I'm unclear on whether
outboundary Day Travelcards contribute towards the regulatory fares basket.

I would assume that there is a set amount that must then go into the
'Travelcard pot' (for later sharing out) from each outboundary TC purchase
though - but how much that is will surely be a commercially confidential bit
of information.


Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London Terminals
(£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First Group) but
Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

Yes, it varies by TOC - FCC and SWT seem to particularly take the mickey
w.r.t. the level at which they set the 'add-on'. I did a little research on
this yesterday evening comparing fares from various places in the south
east, which if you're lucky might result in a post in the future.

However one thing I would say is that whilst outboundary Travelcard prices
from stations not far beyond the zonal boundary (such as Bat & Ball and
Sevenoaks) are often something of a considerable jump up from the inboundary
price (i.e. just zones 1-6), at quick glance it doesn't appear that any of
these add-ons is more than the cost of an (inboundary) z1&2 Day Travelcard.
If it was, it'd just encourage people to sidestep it through
split-ticketing, or drive people to, er, drive (or whatever) to a station
within the zonal boundary (of course the latter happens to an extent
anyway).

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price varies
hugely and totally lacks transparency.

Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London Terminals
(£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First Group) but
Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

Some digging has explained why

It seems that the normal DR from Cambridge to London is at a discount to the
"normal" DR to London as it costs less than a ticket to the boundary station

SET do this as well, though more transparently(or they did last time I
looked). They offer a "special" DR which cannot have a travelcard added and
an "normal" one which can. But it is cheaper to buy the special ticket and
then pay full price for the travel card when you arrive in London.

tim

On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 20:04:02 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

SET do this as well, though more transparently(or they did last time I
looked). They offer a "special" DR which cannot have a travelcard added and
an "normal" one which can. But it is cheaper to buy the special ticket and
then pay full price for the travel card when you arrive in London.

True to some extent at MKC - there is a VT-only 14 quid CDR which
doesn't have a Travelcard equivalent. Not sure why, as it must be
costing VT sales.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To reply put my first name before the at.

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Oct 7, 4:36 pm, wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

wrote:

The point to check for is how much more than the cost of a day
return to London Terminals is the price of a day travelcard.
Certainly from Cambridge most travelcard purchasers would be
better off buying a London Terminals day return and using
Oyster for their tube travel.

But not if you have a Network card which I suggest that anybody
who makes the journey more than about three times a year would
have

Even with a railcard where only one return zones 1 & 2 trip is
made.

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey
wasn't being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as the
appropriate ticket.

I would expect the majority of day travelcard purchasers to make
precisely one return tube journey.

I reckon a good number make more than just a straightforward return
journey on the Tube when in London. As to the how much travelling
within London an outboundary Travelcard holder from somewhere like
Cambridge does, it'd be interesting to have some figures - I'd
guess that TfL and the TOCs might have some broad estimates, though
I'd also guess that any such data would quite likely be considered
commercially confidential.

Some for sure but not the largest number I'll bet.

That costs £3.60 on Oyster and £4.30 as an Off Peak Day Travelcard.

You seem somewhat unlucky in your travelcard "excess". From my
local station (about the same distance at Cambridge) the (railcard)
difference is 2.65.

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price
varies hugely and totally lacks transparency.

It's a commercial decision made by the TOCs - though I'm unclear on
whether outboundary Day Travelcards contribute towards the
regulatory fares basket.

What I really don't understand is why it's gone up so steeply from £1 in
2001 to £6.50 now. That must be outside the regulatory controls.

I would assume that there is a set amount that must then go into
the 'Travelcard pot' (for later sharing out) from each outboundary
TC purchase though - but how much that is will surely be a
commercially confidential bit of information.

FCC claimed to me that the rate was set for them by TfL.

Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London
Terminals (£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First
Group) but Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

Yes, it varies by TOC - FCC and SWT seem to particularly take the
mickey w.r.t. the level at which they set the 'add-on'. I did a
little research on this yesterday evening comparing fares from
various places in the south east, which if you're lucky might
result in a post in the future.

Yes, I was set off on this by an Observer survey of season ticket rates
where the same nonsenses exist between London Terminals and Travelcard
rates.

However one thing I would say is that whilst outboundary Travelcard
prices from stations not far beyond the zonal boundary (such as Bat
& Ball and Sevenoaks) are often something of a considerable jump up
from the inboundary price (i.e. just zones 1-6), at quick glance it
doesn't appear that any of these add-ons is more than the cost of
an (inboundary) z1&2 Day Travelcard. If it was, it'd just encourage
people to sidestep it through split-ticketing, or drive people to,
er, drive (or whatever) to a station within the zonal boundary (of
course the latter happens to an extent anyway).

The Cambridge addon (£6.50) is more than the Zones 1 & 2 off-peak cap
(£5.60) UIVMM.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price
varies hugely and totally lacks transparency.

Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London
Terminals (£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First
Group) but Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

Some digging has explained why

It seems that the normal DR from Cambridge to London is at a
discount to the "normal" DR to London as it costs less than a
ticket to the boundary station

"Normal"? Discount? The rate is set by FCC (and previously by WAGN)

SET do this as well, though more transparently(or they did last
time I looked). They offer a "special" DR which cannot have a
travelcard added and an "normal" one which can. But it is cheaper
to buy the special ticket and then pay full price for the travel
card when you arrive in London.

There is only one travelcard fare from Cambridge (off-peak anyway).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Oct 7, 11:36 pm, wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:

On Oct 7, 4:36 pm, wrote:

(tim....) wrote:

I would have to suggest that if at least one return tube journey
wasn't being made, no-one would even consider a travelcard as the
appropriate ticket.

I would expect the majority of day travelcard purchasers to make
precisely one return tube journey.

I reckon a good number make more than just a straightforward return
journey on the Tube when in London. As to the how much travelling
within London an outboundary Travelcard holder from somewhere like
Cambridge does, it'd be interesting to have some figures - I'd
guess that TfL and the TOCs might have some broad estimates, though
I'd also guess that any such data would quite likely be considered
commercially confidential.

Some for sure but not the largest number I'll bet.

In the absence of any data, said bet isn't going to get very far!


As I understood that the travelcard "add on" was "mandated" at a
fixed amount more than the DR, I find your difference surprising.

I thought that too but it appears that the travelcard addon price
varies hugely and totally lacks transparency.

It's a commercial decision made by the TOCs - though I'm unclear on
whether outboundary Day Travelcards contribute towards the
regulatory fares basket.

What I really don't understand is why it's gone up so steeply from £1 in
2001 to £6.50 now. That must be outside the regulatory controls.

That much - ouch! Yes, seems likely it isn't regulated, but I think the
fares basket regulatory mechanism can make things more complicated than
that.


I would assume that there is a set amount that must then go into
the 'Travelcard pot' (for later sharing out) from each outboundary
TC purchase though - but how much that is will surely be a
commercially confidential bit of information.

FCC claimed to me that the rate was set for them by TfL.

Well that's nonsense. Anyhow inboundary Travelcard prices are set jointly by
TfL and ATOC, as it's a joint product - my understanding is that the Mayor
through TfL can veto above RPI price rises (which Ken did much if not all
the time, whilst Boris agreed to an above RPI rise for 2010 fares).

So whatever the underlying amount that FCC has to put into the Travelcard
pot is not itself solely set by TfL anyway.


Consider Oxford and Cambridge. Same Day Return fares to London
Terminals (£20 or £13.20 with railcard, TOCs in same ownership (First
Group) but Cambridge's travelcard addon is more than double Oxford's.

Yes, it varies by TOC - FCC and SWT seem to particularly take the
mickey w.r.t. the level at which they set the 'add-on'. I did a
little research on this yesterday evening comparing fares from
various places in the south east, which if you're lucky might
result in a post in the future.

Yes, I was set off on this by an Observer survey of season ticket rates
where the same nonsenses exist between London Terminals and Travelcard
rates.

Seasons to London Terminals from the south east are regulated - are
outboundary Travelcards subject to any regulation per se? Perhaps not -
instead a sort of self-regulation mechanism might be relied upon (i.e. if
the outboundary Travelcard price is more than a rail-only season plus
inboundary season Travelcard, the existence of the outboundary season TC
would be pointless.)


However one thing I would say is that whilst outboundary Travelcard
prices from stations not far beyond the zonal boundary (such as Bat
& Ball and Sevenoaks) are often something of a considerable jump up
from the inboundary price (i.e. just zones 1-6), at quick glance it
doesn't appear that any of these add-ons is more than the cost of
an (inboundary) z1&2 Day Travelcard. If it was, it'd just encourage
people to sidestep it through split-ticketing, or drive people to,
er, drive (or whatever) to a station within the zonal boundary (of
course the latter happens to an extent anyway).

The Cambridge addon (£6.50) is more than the Zones 1 & 2 off-peak cap
(£5.60) UIVMM.

Bearing in mind that PAYG caps are now at the same level as their Day
Travelcard equivalents...

The Cambridge add-on is in fact more than a zone 1-4 off peak Day
Travelcard/ off-peak cap at £6.30.