Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Nov 16, 5:39*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:29:37
on Tue, 16 Nov 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.

A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.

I'm self employed, so I'll have to have a word with myself about that!

Time to join a union me thinks...

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 06:47:55AM -0800, David F wrote:
On Nov 16, 12:29=A0pm, David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:11:04PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.
A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.
I've never seen this in the private sector.

It's been standard practice in every place I've worked that had more
than a handful of staff. Or at least, I've always just taken it
(having, naturally, informed people of when I would be away) and never
had any problems. Perhaps other more deferential and less assertive
staff didn't get it. That's their problem.

I do the same - often have
to travel on Sunday evenings so I can make a Monday morning meeting
either overseas, or in a difficult to get-to spot of the UK. I don't
get any extra pay, nor any extra time off.

TOIL isn't *extra* time off.

I suppose it depends on the job. None of mine have had the expectation
of having to do those sort of shenanigans regularly, and so when I *did*
have to do them, it would be reasonable to compensate me for them. If
it *is* a significant part of your job, then I suppose it could be
argued that you knew about it in advance and so don't need to be
compensated for it.

I'm thankful I have a job.

I'm thankful that I have a *good* job where the notional 9 to 5 is
sufficient to comfortably support the far more important 5 to 9.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

What a lovely day! Now watch me spoil it for you.

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010, David F wrote:

On Nov 16, 12:29*pm, David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:11:04PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.

A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.

I've never seen this in the private sector.

If we're talking about whole days, then i work in the private sector, and
i get it. Ditto for the one of my housemates who isn't a civil servant.
I'm in software, he's a medical writer (lot's of travelling to conferences
and so on).

I do the same - often have to travel on Sunday evenings so I can make a
Monday morning meeting either overseas, or in a difficult to get-to spot
of the UK. I don't get any extra pay, nor any extra time off.

Evenings travelling, i admit, don't earn time off. If i fly to Denmark
after work, i won't get time off; if i fly to Connecticut, i will.

I'm thankful I have a job.

I submit that this is the wrong attitude. Your employer should be thankful
he has you.

tom

--
Do more with less -- R. Buckminster Fuller

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010, Mizter T wrote:

On Nov 16, 5:39*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:29:37
on Tue, 16 Nov 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.

A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.

I'm self employed, so I'll have to have a word with myself about that!

Time to join a union me thinks...

There is such a thing in the US:

http://www.freelancersunion.org/

tom

--
Do more with less -- R. Buckminster Fuller

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Nov 17, 9:22*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010, Mizter T wrote:
On Nov 16, 5:39*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:29:37
on Tue, 16 Nov 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.

A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.

I'm self employed, so I'll have to have a word with myself about that!

Time to join a union me thinks...

There is such a thing in the US:

http://www.freelancersunion.org/

tom

A union is for life; not just for the dispute.

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Nov 17, 9:20*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010, David F wrote:

I'm thankful I have a job.

I submit that this is the wrong attitude. Your employer should be thankful
he has you.

;-)

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

In message , at 11:40:25
on Wed, 17 Nov 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:11:04PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
Dunno, but I don't get paid extra, and have often had to spend Sundays
travelling to overseas meetings, which frequently clash with UK Bank
Holiday Mondays.
A reasonable employer would give you TOIL for both the time spent
travelling and the time spent working.
I've never seen this in the private sector.

It's been standard practice in every place I've worked that had more
than a handful of staff. Or at least, I've always just taken it
(having, naturally, informed people of when I would be away) and never
had any problems. Perhaps other more deferential and less assertive
staff didn't get it. That's their problem.

It certainly sorts out the people who live to work, or work to live.

Depending on the task at hand, it can be better to profile your staff
one way or the other.

I do the same - often have
to travel on Sunday evenings so I can make a Monday morning meeting
either overseas, or in a difficult to get-to spot of the UK. I don't
get any extra pay, nor any extra time off.

TOIL isn't *extra* time off.

There's a concept of time-and-a-half off in lieu, of course.

One organisation I've worked with pays time and a half for weekday
overtime, and gives double TOIL for weekend and Bank Holidays.

But that can lead to obsessive clock-watching. What if you have a
colleague visiting from overseas, the meeting finishes at 5pm and he
asks if you mind doing some extra briefing over a drink. But to get your
overtime for that you need to consult a manager, and you are unwilling
to do anything that looks like work unless you are paid?

Personal circumstances can make a difference too - an awkward commute or
children to collect from school or cook dinner for, can change people's
outlook significantly.

And if you went to an off-site meeting and are on the train back to base
in the evening - does paying overtime mean you also be expected to read
some papers preparing for the following day?

Overseas trips can also be an issue - how do you book overtime/TOIL for
a journey that starts at 7pm with a taxi to the airport, followed by an
overnight flight, but the bulk of the following day relaxing by the
pool? When the employer might prefer you to get up at 4am the next day,
and fly in daylight, missing the pool-time (but which is also time
recouperating and will make you more productive later).

I suppose it depends on the job. None of mine have had the expectation
of having to do those sort of shenanigans regularly, and so when I *did*
have to do them, it would be reasonable to compensate me for them. If
it *is* a significant part of your job, then I suppose it could be
argued that you knew about it in advance and so don't need to be
compensated for it.

It's like the need (and ability because of Visa status etc) of being
able to travel for work.

I'm thankful I have a job.

I'm thankful that I have a *good* job where the notional 9 to 5 is
sufficient to comfortably support the far more important 5 to 9.

That works for some tasks, not others.
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 02:54:11PM -0800, Mizter T wrote:
On Nov 16, 5:39=A0pm, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm self employed, so I'll have to have a word with myself about that!
Time to join a union me thinks...

Not quite as silly an idea as it may seem. My union is basically an
insurance policy that gets me free access to lawyers specialising in
work-place and employment law.

Are you a member of PCG, Roland?

--
David Cantrell
Professor of Unvironmental Science
University of Human Progress

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

In message , at 12:57:35
on Thu, 18 Nov 2010, David Cantrell remarked:

Are you a member of PCG, Roland?

Curiously enough I was co-chair of something called a PCG, but a
different one, earlier this year.

As my day-job is doing lobbying activity, joining PCG would be a bit of
a busman's holiday, and I can't be worrying about every aspect of policy
to do with every aspect of my life. So no.
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:07:25 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
As my day-job is doing lobbying activity,

Thats a job?

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

In message , at 16:26:09 on Thu, 18 Nov
2010, d remarked:

As my day-job is doing lobbying activity,

Thats a job?

Yes, trying to persuade people to make sensible decisions.

In fact half of what's posted in this newsgroup would be lobbying, if
actually delivered direct to the ToC, DfT, Network Rail, or whoever else
is being told how "we think" they should perform their role differently
or better.
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:02:14 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:26:09 on Thu, 18 Nov
2010, d remarked:

As my day-job is doing lobbying activity,

Thats a job?

Yes, trying to persuade people to make sensible decisions.

Otherwise known as vested interests trying to have things their own way.

Sorry , thats not a job, its a hobby. Please tell me you're not in some
government funded quango.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

In message , at 10:12:57 on Fri, 19 Nov
2010, d remarked:
As my day-job is doing lobbying activity,

Thats a job?

Yes, trying to persuade people to make sensible decisions.

Otherwise known as vested interests trying to have things their own way.

Most of the work I do is in areas like Cybercrime where there are three
camps (four if you count the criminals).

Government and Police want more control.
ISPs and content providers say it's not their problem.
Civil society either wants to preserve privacy (even if that means
crimes go un-punished) or completely oppositely want more to be done
because individual people are suffering a lot.

Which of those are "vested interests" - not sure the term really
applies. There are opposing interests, and in a democracy the one that
blinks first is generally going to be on the losing side. Losing, as in
"the balance will swing towards the others".

You are perhaps blissfully unaware how many of the freedoms and services
you have are down to the work of lobbyists.

Sorry , thats not a job, its a hobby.

A bit of a strange remark, seeing as how this subthread started by me
being asked if I was a member of a lobbying association (for
freelancers). They seem to think it's a job.

Pleas e tell me you're not in some government funded quango.

No, but I work with a lot of Government Departments. Don't know which
you'd call quangos - but as the original topic was workers rights, what
do you think (eg) of Employment Tribunals, and of people who lobby
Parliament to get more employee-friendly legislation passed?
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:53:08 +0000
Which of those are "vested interests" - not sure the term really
applies. There are opposing interests, and in a democracy the one that
blinks first is generally going to be on the losing side. Losing, as in
"the balance will swing towards the others".

Vested interests because money is usually involved and the side with the
most money can afford the mosy lobbyists and other forms of persuation.

You are perhaps blissfully unaware how many of the freedoms and services
you have are down to the work of lobbyists.

I think you're confusing lobbyists with campaigners. Campaigners do it
because they believe in it. People such as yourself do it because you're
paid to.

A bit of a strange remark, seeing as how this subthread started by me
being asked if I was a member of a lobbying association (for
freelancers). They seem to think it's a job.

Its a job in the sense of a wage, not in the sense of something with a
useful purpose.

you'd call quangos - but as the original topic was workers rights, what
do you think (eg) of Employment Tribunals, and of people who lobby
Parliament to get more employee-friendly legislation passed?

We have enough employee friendly legislation already.

B2003

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

In message , at 13:35:37 on Fri, 19 Nov
2010, d remarked:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:53:08 +0000
Which of those are "vested interests" - not sure the term really
applies. There are opposing interests, and in a democracy the one that
blinks first is generally going to be on the losing side. Losing, as in
"the balance will swing towards the others".

Vested interests because money is usually involved and the side with the
most money can afford the mosy lobbyists and other forms of persuation.

The person with the best argument can win, even with very little
funding. All the money in the world won't make a broken argument stick
(assuming there's anyone at all calling their bluff).

You are perhaps blissfully unaware how many of the freedoms and services
you have are down to the work of lobbyists.

I think you're confusing lobbyists with campaigners. Campaigners do it
because they believe in it. People such as yourself do it because you're
paid to.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I don't find it difficult to lobby against Spam, I dislike it as much
any many campaigners; and people who don't think Spam is a problem are
probably people who haven't been exposed to it - therefore the lobbying
is more like education.

A bit of a strange remark, seeing as how this subthread started by me
being asked if I was a member of a lobbying association (for
freelancers). They seem to think it's a job.

Its a job in the sense of a wage, not in the sense of something with a
useful purpose.

It can be both. Rule-changes will typically be beneficial to some
people, and a hindrance to others. Government is about balancing the
different priorities. But it's not good for that to happen from a
position of ignorance.

you'd call quangos - but as the original topic was workers rights, what
do you think (eg) of Employment Tribunals, and of people who lobby
Parliament to get more employee-friendly legislation passed?

We have enough employee friendly legislation already.

And how do you think it got like that?
--
Roland Perry

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:53:08PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote in response
to Boltar:

No, but I work with a lot of Government Departments. Don't know which
you'd call quangos - but as the original topic was workers rights, what
do you think (eg) of Employment Tribunals, and of people who lobby
Parliament to get more employee-friendly legislation passed?

They're obviously godless communists. Especially the employment
tribunals, as they sometimes find - for no good reason - in favour of
the bolshie union member.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

EINE KIRCHE! EIN KREDO! EIN PAPST!

Boxing Day Tube Strike Threat
 

On Nov 23, 12:27*pm, David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:53:08PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote in response
to Boltar:

No, but I work with a lot of Government Departments. Don't know which
you'd call quangos - but as the original topic was workers rights, what
do you think (eg) of Employment Tribunals, and of people who lobby
Parliament to get more employee-friendly legislation passed?

They're obviously godless communists. *Especially the employment
tribunals, as they sometimes find - for no good reason - in favour of
the bolshie union member.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

EINE KIRCHE! EIN KREDO! EIN PAPST!

I wonder if there will be a threatened tube strike for the Friday
after Easter?