SNOW JOKE
 

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

SNOW JOKE
 

In message
,
George writes

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace.

Have a lot of TfL routes been disrupted by snow?

There's only been very light snow in much of London today, and such as
there was melted very quickly.

I appreciated things are probably different on the outer fringes
--
Paul Terry

SNOW JOKE
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message ...

In message
,
George writes

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace.

Have a lot of TfL routes been disrupted by snow?

There's only been very light snow in much of London today, and such as
there was melted very quickly.

I appreciated things are probably different on the outer fringes
--
Paul Terry

===========

Lucky you; we have had 6" in Bromley and it is still snowing. My grandson
had to walk home from school (2 miles or so) as there were no buses into
Bromley.

MaxB

SNOW JOKE
 

On Nov 30, 6:58*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Although there is mention of general delays, there seems to be a total
lack of any Metrobus buses in service down ower way (Orpington and
Croydon garages I spose).

I didn't see a single one in quite a while of trudging through snow,
watching huge crowds at stops etc. London Central and Selkent running
apparently fairly normally.

SNOW JOKE
 

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

There was plenty of information on the real time news section of the site,
although of course you have to know to look there. For example I knew that
the 197 had been diverted via Elmers End, then further diverted via
Beckenham War Memorial (although the status update confusingly mentioned
Woodside Green which couldn't have been right), and then completely
withdrawn. Admittedly it was a bit confusing having all three of those
statuses appear simultaneously and some timestamps would have been useful
but the information was there. It could also have been improved by
explaining exactly why there were diversions or withdrawals e.g. which roads
were considered impassable.

There was perhaps a lack of comment on the degree of disruption to services.
For example, although I knew that at one stage the 130, 197 and 312 had all
been withdrawn, there was no comment on any disruption to the 410 at all
(not even the general comment about disruption in the Croydon area). I
assume in the absence of information to the contrary that they were running,
although I didn't see any this evening, but with traffic on one mile long
local distributor road on the route typically moving at just a few m.p.h.
and Croydon town centre rumoured to be pretty much jammed solid, it seems
unlikely it was performing at anywhere near its best.

What I did notice while I was monitoring the site for a while is that the
status updates were reworded so that instead of just saying that a service
had been withdrawn, it said that a service had been withdrawn by the named
operating company. It read very much as "don't blame us, blame
Arriva/Metrobus/whoever, it was them, not us" and I found it a smidgen
childish and unnecessary.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Nov 30, 10:25*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:14:37 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
Although there is mention of general delays, there seems to be a total
lack of any Metrobus buses in service down ower way (Orpington and
Croydon garages I spose).

Apparently Metrobus are saying they've pulled all their buses off the
road. *TfL's details on the real time site indicate otherwise - just
partial suspensions on some routes.

TfL are reporting most of Epsom Buses' routes are not working.

I didn't see a single one in quite a while of trudging through snow,
watching huge crowds at stops etc. *London Central and Selkent running
apparently fairly normally.

And this matches the lack of negative info on the TfL site. One has to
wonder why Metrobus are struggling so badly when other routes seem to be
still running.
--
Paul C

The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit. It took me over
an hour longer than usual to get from Coulsdon to Croydon this
morning. Traffic was very slow, but at least it kept moving. As I
was waiting to cross the road in Croydon having got off the bus at
about 10:15, a snowplough passed me, something you seldom see in these
parts, but neither the main road, nor the side streets I used seem to
have had any salt or grit applied. Whether this was the reason for
the disruption being worse than last year, with only a small amount of
snow at that time, I don't know.

At lunchtime it was announced that the building would close at 14:00,
but at 13:45 I was asked to leave. I walked down to the bus stop in
Park Street just before where Turtles used to be. After about 10-15
minutes a 60 arrived, going only to Coulsdon, not continuing up the
hill to Old Coulsdon, but this is normal during snow. I didn't see
any 405s running.

I got on, but we only moved by about a bus length every ten minutes or
so, and after nearly an hour we hadn't quite reached the end of the
road, opposite Grants, there was still another bus in front of us.
The traffic on the main road didn't seem to be moving at all at that
point, and the driver announced that all route 60 buses would be
terminating at South Croydon Garage. I'm not sure whether he meant
that the service was being suspended, or that the buses would return
North, but neither was any use to me, so I got off. While at work I
had checked the TfL website; route 60 was shown as having no
disruption or not being a valid route. It was the same when I checked
while on the bus.

I walked back up Park Street, taking little more than ten seconds to
pass the stop where I'd got on almost an hour earlier. I walked to
East Croydon station, and there was a train shown to Coulsdon South in
a few minutes from platform 6, but no train arrived, unless it had
left by the time I reached the platform; I don't think this was the
case as there was snow on the rails. Most services were heavily
delayed, which is not surprising as the weather was pretty bad by this
time. A Tattenham Corner train was shown as being due at 15:07, but
running 12 minutes late. That time kept being put back, as did that
for just about all other trains, quite often showing a time which had
already passed by several minutes. They then started announcing that
the train was just outside the station waiting for clearance to run
into the platform, but nothing arrived, and by this time the indicator
on the platform simply showed the train as 'delayed'. A Caterham
train which was due to leave from platform 6 was changed to 5, and
eventually our Tattenham Corner train was announced as being changed
to platform 4. A large number of people went to the subway, and I
didn't think I'd get on, but did manage to. The train still didn't
leave for several more minutes, but eventually departed 58 minutes
late.

We ran very slowly, with very severe arcing both from our train and
from others. Up trains seemed to be running faster than down ones.

When we reached Reedham I could see that the up track was completely
buried in snow, to above the heads of the running rails, so no up
trains seemed to be running on this line by that time. As we left
Reedham the arcing became even more severe, and the train had
difficulty moving. I wished I'd got off at Reedham before the doors
closed, but the train did eventually reach Smitham. I don't know if
it managed to reach the end of the line.

When I reached Coulsdon the traffic was stationary on the main road,
so no chance of a gritter getting through. It had taken me about
three hours to get home from Croydon.

The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning, and I'm not surprised at the delays, but I think the
information could, and should, have been better, both for the buses
and the trains.

SNOW JOKE
 

The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.
...
The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning

Although we seem to have had five or six inches of snow build up over the
day, rather that the possible 1-2cm that was being forecast on Monday
evening, I wouldn't say the Croydon area has been particularly badly hit
weather wise. It has just snowed. It is not like a couple of years ago
when we woke up to nearly a foot of the stuff. The pavements which had a
lovely layer of fresh snow this morning have got a little more treacherous
in the afternoon as the snow has been trodden down but the roads don't seem
so much worse than they were first thing.

The trouble with Croydon is that it takes very little to gum up the works.
The main roads are very busy at peak periods at the best of times, and a
single closure or diversion on a major road can have a knock on effect a
couple miles away (e.g. the closure of Coombe Road for a few days a while
back was clearly reflected in the level and speed of traffic on the Lower
Addiscombe Road). So even the most modest amount of snow has a major effect.
Once the roads are bunged up the bus network, which is pretty good normally,
is of course stuffed. Similarly there is an impressive rail service in
Croydon when all is going smoothly, but it is at capacity and it takes very
little to reduce it to chaos.

SNOW JOKE
 

On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere.

SNOW JOKE
 

On 1 Dec, 00:08, "Graham J" wrote:
The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.
...
The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning

Although we seem to have had five or six inches of snow build up over the
day, rather that the possible 1-2cm that was being forecast on Monday
evening, I wouldn't say the Croydon area has been particularly badly hit
weather wise. *It has just snowed. *It is not like a couple of years ago
when we woke up to nearly a foot of the stuff. *The pavements which had a
lovely layer of fresh snow this morning have got a little more treacherous
in the afternoon as the snow has been trodden down but the roads don't seem
so much worse than they were first thing.

The trouble with Croydon is that it takes very little to gum up the works..
The main roads are very busy at peak periods at the best of times, and a
single closure or diversion on a major road can have a knock on effect a
couple miles away (e.g. the closure of Coombe Road for a few days a while
back was clearly reflected in the level and speed of traffic on the Lower
Addiscombe Road). So even the most modest amount of snow has a major effect.
Once the roads are bunged up the bus network, which is pretty good normally,
is of course stuffed. *Similarly there is an impressive rail service in
Croydon when all is going smoothly, but it is at capacity and it takes very
little to reduce it to chaos.

Croydon has been very bad although the trams kept going.

There were unconfirmed reports of a bus on route 412 having overturned
on Mitchley Hill, anybody know anything about this?

SNOW JOKE
 

On 30 Nov, 23:12, wrote:
On Nov 30, 10:25*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:14:37 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
Although there is mention of general delays, there seems to be a total
lack of any Metrobus buses in service down ower way (Orpington and
Croydon garages I spose).

Apparently Metrobus are saying they've pulled all their buses off the
road. *TfL's details on the real time site indicate otherwise - just
partial suspensions on some routes.

TfL are reporting most of Epsom Buses' routes are not working.

I didn't see a single one in quite a while of trudging through snow,
watching huge crowds at stops etc. *London Central and Selkent running
apparently fairly normally.

And this matches the lack of negative info on the TfL site. One has to
wonder why Metrobus are struggling so badly when other routes seem to be
still running.
--
Paul C

The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit. *It took me over
an hour longer than usual to get from Coulsdon to Croydon this
morning. *Traffic was very slow, but at least it kept moving. *As I
was waiting to cross the road in Croydon having got off the bus at
about 10:15, a snowplough passed me, something you seldom see in these
parts, but neither the main road, nor the side streets I used seem to
have had any salt or grit applied. *Whether this was the reason for
the disruption being worse than last year, with only a small amount of
snow at that time, I don't know.

At lunchtime it was announced that the building would close at 14:00,
but at 13:45 I was asked to leave. *I walked down to the bus stop in
Park Street just before where Turtles used to be. *After about 10-15
minutes a 60 arrived, going only to Coulsdon, not continuing up the
hill to Old Coulsdon, but this is normal during snow. *I didn't see
any 405s running.

I got on, but we only moved by about a bus length every ten minutes or
so, and after nearly an hour we hadn't quite reached the end of the
road, opposite Grants, there was still another bus in front of us.
The traffic on the main road didn't seem to be moving at all at that
point, and the driver announced that all route 60 buses would be
terminating at South Croydon Garage. *I'm not sure whether he meant
that the service was being suspended, or that the buses would return
North, but neither was any use to me, so I got off. *While at work I
had checked the TfL website; route 60 was shown as having no
disruption or not being a valid route. *It was the same when I checked
while on the bus.

I walked back up Park Street, taking little more than ten seconds to
pass the stop where I'd got on almost an hour earlier. *I walked to
East Croydon station, and there was a train shown to Coulsdon South in
a few minutes from platform 6, but no train arrived, unless it had
left by the time I reached the platform; I don't think this was the
case as there was snow on the rails. *Most services were heavily
delayed, which is not surprising as the weather was pretty bad by this
time. *A Tattenham Corner train was shown as being due at 15:07, but
running 12 minutes late. *That time kept being put back, as did that
for just about all other trains, quite often showing a time which had
already passed by several minutes. *They then started announcing that
the train was just outside the station waiting for clearance to run
into the platform, but nothing arrived, and by this time the indicator
on the platform simply showed the train as 'delayed'. *A Caterham
train which was due to leave from platform 6 was changed to 5, and
eventually our Tattenham Corner train was announced as being changed
to platform 4. *A large number of people went to the subway, and I
didn't think I'd get on, but did manage to. *The train still didn't
leave for several more minutes, but eventually departed 58 minutes
late.

We ran very slowly, with very severe arcing both from our train and
from others. *Up trains seemed to be running faster than down ones.

When we reached Reedham I could see that the up track was completely
buried in snow, to above the heads of the running rails, so no up
trains seemed to be running on this line by that time. *As we left
Reedham the arcing became even more severe, and the train had
difficulty moving. *I wished I'd got off at Reedham before the doors
closed, but the train did eventually reach Smitham. *I don't know if
it managed to reach the end of the line.

When I reached Coulsdon the traffic was stationary on the main road,
so no chance of a gritter getting through. *It had taken me about
three hours to get home from Croydon.

The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning, and I'm not surprised at the delays, but I think the
information could, and should, have been better, both for the buses
and the trains.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was a report elsewhere of a train being advertised at East
Croydon as all stations to Three Bridges but after stopping at South
Croydon it run fast to Horley, great!!

There were passengers stranded on a train near Purley and passengers
have been stuck on a train near Orpington all night!

It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange how these
snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

B2003

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:
On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed..

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? I doubt that somehow. There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google

SNOW JOKE
 

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 03:12:45PM -0800, wrote:

The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.

It was. In Thornton Heath there was about 4 or 5 inches of snow on the
ground, versus a thin scattering just a couple of miles further north,
when I got home last night.

I had to use a cab, because there were no trains running between Balham
and Thornton Heath (well, not according to announcements at the station -
the departure boards and the online live departure boards disagreed, but
given that all three were saying different things I decided to trust the
station staff to know better) and my driver told me that he'd just taken
*two hours* to get from Croydon to Balham. I could believe him too.
Southbound it wasn't too bad, but there was a ridiculous amount of
northbound traffic going nowhere fast. And this was at 10pm.

There were buses running, but with no trains they were rammed, and in
any case, the service was very infrequent, presumably because so many
buses were stuck in traffic.

The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning, and I'm not surprised at the delays, but I think the
information could, and should, have been better, both for the buses
and the trains.

Yes. I don't really understand how station departure boards and the
online live departure boards can be different. Surely they're driven
off the same data sources, but they were both utterly divorced from each
other and from reality when my journey started at Shepherds Bush, when
I changed at Clapham Junction, when I got off at Balham, and three hours
later when I left the pub and went back to Balham station.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Suffer the little children to come unto me, as
their buying habits are most easily influenced.
-- Marketroid Jesus

SNOW JOKE
 

In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange
how these
snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

It looks like a South East London problem only.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 12:12*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:





On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? *I doubt that somehow. *There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Indeed, and if you open that use the Edit - Find menu option on
Internet Explorer to search for the string "adverse weather", you can
scroll directly to the disruptions that are caused by adverse weather,
as opposed to any other cause. Having said that, it might be an idea
if there was a link directly from the home page which showed all buses
disrupted due to bad weather, rather than having to hunt for it as
described above. Other bus companies, such as Lothian Buses in
Edinburgh, are doing this.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 12:12*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:



On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? *I doubt that somehow. *There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google

The place where I looked was TFL website, then 'Winter weather
conditions', then buses tab, then entered route number in the box.
For route 60 it now says 'No service Coulsdon Red Lion to Old
Coulsdon, not serving Poplar Walk in Central Croydon', which seems to
be correct, but twice yesterday it was saying that route 60 either had
no disruptions, or it was not a valid route. Clearly, this was not
correct.

I didn't look at route 466 yesterday, but it's now saying 'No service
between Coulsdon Town Centre and Caterham-on-the-Hill due to adverse
weather conditions.' This could perhaps be slightly better worded,
since it doesn't normally serve Coulsdon Town Centre, but turns left
before it gets there; it's actually being diverted to the town centre,
serving a few extra stops on the way. At least the information that
it isn't serving Caterham-on-the-Hill is correct, so the information
for these two routes is now correct. I don't know about the situation
on other routes, so I can't check the information now being provided.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 12:08*am, "Graham J" wrote:
The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.
...
The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning

Although we seem to have had five or six inches of snow build up over the
day, rather that the possible 1-2cm that was being forecast on Monday
evening, I wouldn't say the Croydon area has been particularly badly hit
weather wise. *It has just snowed. *It is not like a couple of years ago
when we woke up to nearly a foot of the stuff. *The pavements which had a
lovely layer of fresh snow this morning have got a little more treacherous
in the afternoon as the snow has been trodden down but the roads don't seem
so much worse than they were first thing.

When I wrote 'badly hit' I was referring more to the disruption than
to the weather conditions themselves, at least until about 15:00 when
I arrived at East Croydon station. After that it got quite nasty,
with a lot of snowing around in the air, falling temperature and very
poor visibility; certainly not good conditions to be driving on the
roads.

The trouble with Croydon is that it takes very little to gum up the works..
The main roads are very busy at peak periods at the best of times, and a
single closure or diversion on a major road can have a knock on effect a
couple miles away (e.g. the closure of Coombe Road for a few days a while
back was clearly reflected in the level and speed of traffic on the Lower
Addiscombe Road). So even the most modest amount of snow has a major effect.
Once the roads are bunged up the bus network, which is pretty good normally,
is of course stuffed. *Similarly there is an impressive rail service in
Croydon when all is going smoothly, but it is at capacity and it takes very
little to reduce it to chaos.

Between about 14:00 and 15:00 the traffic on the main road was hardly
moving at all. I didn't see it after that, so I don't know how long
this situation lasted. The weather at that time was certainly less
severe in central Croydon than we have seen in the last two years.
Somebody said that it was the same all the way down the Brighton Road
to Coulsdon and Hooley; certainly nothing was moving much when I
arrived at Coulsdon. Of course, the Brighton Road would be carrying a
lot less traffic if the motorway scheme hadn't been cancelled in the
'70s when they decided that demolishing a large area of South London
wasn't a good idea. Given how narrow the Brighton Road is a few
failed or abandoned vehicles would be quite effective at totally
screwing things up, but why the disruption should have been so bad
this yesterday, when the weather was less severe than we have seen in
the last two years isn't yet clear.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 6:11*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
[big snip]
The place where I looked was TFL website, then 'Winter weather
conditions', *then buses tab, then entered route number in the box.
For route 60 it now says 'No service Coulsdon Red Lion to Old
Coulsdon, not serving Poplar Walk in Central Croydon', which seems to
be correct, but twice yesterday it was saying that route 60 either had
no disruptions, or it was not a valid route. *Clearly, *this was not
correct.
I didn't look at *route 466 yesterday, but it's now saying 'No service
between Coulsdon Town Centre and Caterham-on-the-Hill due to adverse
weather conditions.' *This could perhaps be slightly better worded,
since it doesn't normally serve Coulsdon Town Centre, but turns left
before it gets there; it's actually being diverted to the town centre,
serving a few extra stops on the way. *At least the information that
it isn't serving Caterham-on-the-Hill is correct, so the information
for these two routes is now correct. *I don't know about the situation
on other routes, so I can't check the information now being provided.

The point that started this thread was that there was *no* information
about TfL bus services. That is palpably incorrect - I found loads of it
in less than 5 minutes. *I know George of old from other Yahoo based
groups. He made the point and said he was going to complain to TfL. All
I am saying is that it would be a waste of time given that his
proposition is untrue and he has subsequently admitted he could not find
the right part of the website.

He will probably come along and change the basis of his argument - an
old tactic - to say that the website design is crap or somesuch. That is
a different argument as is your contention above about the accuracy of
the information that was provided. *I don't have a problem with agreeing
that some of the information could have been better phrased or perhaps
more timely or accurate. *However I don't know how busy Centrecomm and
the Travel Information Service has been nor do I know what genuine
problems the bus operators have faced. *If they'd all been sitting on
their backsides doing nothing other than drinking tea then criticism
might be due but I await some evidence rather than baseless wild
accusations before I get overly excited.

TfL is a long time target for George and he will take whatever
opportunity he can to lambast the organisation for being useless without
properly considering the issues that may genuinely account for a less
than ideal service. *He would, however, extend complete sympathy to
Metrobus because they're a private bus company and operate some
deregulated services outside of London. *Private and deregulated = good
and TfL and public service = bad in a certain person's book.

--
Paul C


I rather suspect many utl readers haven't taken long to get a handle
on George and his, er, perspective on things (wrong end of binoculars
springs to mind) - though the little bit of background is interesting
nonetheless.

Of course utl needed a 'snow thread' of some sort, and so it seems
that this is the vehicle for discussion on said topic. I get the
feeling that utl is a somewhat less busy place these days than in
times past, so I suppose we have to take what comes w.r.t. jumping off
points for about transportational happenings.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 1:12*pm, wrote:

In article , ()
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange
how these snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

It looks like a South East London problem only.

That's to rather narrow it down though - south and (south)east of
London as well as just SE London were affected - the criticism of
gritting was being particularly levelled at the Boroughs of Bromley,
Croydon and Sutton, the latter being to the SW (or indeed SSW) of
course - the SE London suburban rail network meanwhile is of course
fundamentally intertwined with the commuter lines coming in from Kent
and Sussex, which have suffered big problems (Kent in particular). The
major roads leading out from and circling the SE fringe - M25, M20,
M26, A2, A20 - were particularly hit last night (as was the A23 a bit
further round), and may well be tonight too.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Nov 30, 12:48*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

George writes

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace.

Have a lot of TfL routes been disrupted by snow?

There's only been very light snow in much of London today, and such as
there was melted very quickly.

I appreciated things are probably different on the outer fringes

It was heavier (though not what I'd regard as properly heavy) in
rather more than just the 'outer fringes', unless you were to regard
say Crystal Palace as being on the edge - and it certainly didn't melt
everywhere. All depends where one is talking about.

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 1, 10:03*am, wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange how
these snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

The lay of the land, where high ground is, where weather is coming in
from, the heat island effect etc must all have an effect - but
(Greater) London's a big place and different parts of it can certainly
experience rather different weather, no doubt. Plus of course south of
the river the suburban rail services are a thoroughly enmeshed part of
the wider rail network, which is third rail powered and thus rather
more susceptible to problems when the snow and ice comes.

SNOW JOKE
 

On 1 Dec, 12:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:





On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? *I doubt that somehow. *There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Have you never heard the phrase 'when in a hole stop digging' Paul?
Very apt for this weather. If you'd checked your facts before jumping
to conclusions you would know that it is Paul Morant who started the
new group, not me. He was banned from Mr Rivetts group and that is why
me and several others terminated our membership of said group, sorry
to spoil your latest rant with a few facts!

Do you ever listen to LBC Radio? Yesterday many callers were
complaining about TfL's lack of info, either they've got it all wrong
or you have, ho hum!!

SNOW JOKE
 

On 1 Dec, 23:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Nov 30, 12:48*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

George writes

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace.

Have a lot of TfL routes been disrupted by snow?

There's only been very light snow in much of London today, and such as
there was melted very quickly.

I appreciated things are probably different on the outer fringes

It was heavier (though not what I'd regard as properly heavy) in
rather more than just the 'outer fringes', unless you were to regard
say Crystal Palace as being on the edge - and it certainly didn't melt
everywhere. All depends where one is talking about.

Yes Crystal Palace was bad, I used to live just off Anerley Hill in my
childhood years and recall buses doing a three point turn at the foot
of the hill because they couldn't get up it. Certainly the 358 was
curtailed at Penge yesterday.

In fairness I think most operators did as well as could be reasonably
expected.

SNOW JOKE
 

On 2010\12\02 09:35, George wrote:

Yes Crystal Palace was bad, I used to live just off Anerley Hill in my
childhood years and recall buses doing a three point turn at the foot
of the hill because they couldn't get up it. Certainly the 358 was
curtailed at Penge yesterday.

In fairness I think most operators did as well as could be reasonably
expected.

How many hills are there in London that give buses trouble in cold
weather? Why don't we relocate facilities that produce heat to the road
surface of these hills, and then rebuild the road on the roof of the
facilities? I mean power stations, transformers, kitchens etc that
produce heat as a by-product rather than deliberately producing heat for
the sake of it. You could insulate most of the roof and just leave four
metal strips for the tyres.

SNOW JOKE
 

but why the disruption should have been
so bad
this yesterday, when the weather was less severe than we have seen in
the last two years isn't yet clear.

I guess it could be something to do with it being unusually cold this time
around. We've had a lot worse weather in the last couple of years but not
accompanied by the freezing / sub-freezing temperatures. The snow seems a
little different this time around too. It seems very fine, dry and powdery
rather than quite big and icy. I couldn't even get a decent snowman out of
it.

G.

SNOW JOKE
 

In article ,
Graham J wrote:
but why the disruption should have been
The snow seems a
little different this time around too. It seems very fine, dry and powdery
rather than quite big and icy. I couldn't even get a decent snowman out of
it.

Isn't that precisely the kind of snow that was the infamous "wrong
kind of snow"? ;-)

-roy

SNOW JOKE
 

On Dec 2, 6:33*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 01:17:09 -0800 (PST), George
wrote:
Have you never heard the phrase 'when in a hole stop digging' Paul?

Yes - usually in connection with you George.

Very apt for this weather. If you'd checked your facts before jumping
to conclusions you would know that it is Paul Morant who started the
new group, not me. He was banned from Mr Rivetts group and that is why
me and several others terminated our membership of said group, sorry
to spoil your latest rant with a few facts!

Not what I understand to be the case - especially in relation to your
departure from the group.

Do you ever listen to LBC Radio? Yesterday many callers were
complaining about TfL's lack of info, either they've got it all wrong
or you have, ho hum!!

Oh look you've changed the subject. What a surprise! *Have you sent your
complaint in to TfL and have you admitted that you were unable to work
their website to find the information therein? *

What people say on the radio is of absolutely no relevance to your
complaint that started this thread. *I trust you will share both the
full content of your E Mail to TfL and also the reply that they send
you. I trust you have also advised them of your failure to find a simple
tab on what is a main page of the website.

I was out and about here and there today (Thursday) and was quite
impressed with what I saw, both in terms of buses running - given the
weather some seemingly unlikely routes were still in operation (albeit
with a few diversions) - and also in terms of roads having been
gritted - I expect the TLRN [1] roads to be so treated (and indeed
they were and are), but I got the impression that at least some
Boroughs were making the effort to ensure that other roads (even some
perhaps a little off the well beaten track) which are on bus routes
got gritted too.

Also good to see the ELL remained in operation, albeit limited to the
'core' route north of New Cross/ NX Gate (dunno whether they managed
to run much of a service south of NX Gate today - though I see
Southern were managing to run a half-hourly London Bridge to East
Croydon stopper, later in the day at least).

-----
[1] Transport for London Road Network - key roads which are the
responsibility of TfL - easily identifiable as they're all Red Routes.

SNOW JOKE
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

I expect the TLRN [1] roads to be so treated (and indeed
they were and are), but I got the impression that at least some
Boroughs were making the effort to ensure that other roads (even some
perhaps a little off the well beaten track) which are on bus routes
got gritted too.

Presumably this was as a result of the policy to prioritise clearing
access to bus garages and bus routes (amongst other things) that was
drawn-up by TfL and the London boroughs after snow problems last year.
If so, it's good to see it working.
--
Paul Terry

SNOW JOKE
 

On 2 Dec, 18:33, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 01:17:09 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
Have you never heard the phrase 'when in a hole stop digging' Paul?

Yes - usually in connection with you George.

Very apt for this weather. If you'd checked your facts before jumping
to conclusions you would know that it is Paul Morant who started the
new group, not me. He was banned from Mr Rivetts group and that is why
me and several others terminated our membership of said group, sorry
to spoil your latest rant with a few facts!

Not what I understand to be the case - especially in relation to your
departure from the group.

Do you ever listen to LBC Radio? Yesterday many callers were
complaining about TfL's lack of info, either they've got it all wrong
or you have, ho hum!!

Oh look you've changed the subject. What a surprise! *Have you sent your
complaint in to TfL and have you admitted that you were unable to work
their website to find the information therein? *

What people say on the radio is of absolutely no relevance to your
complaint that started this thread. *I trust you will share both the
full content of your E Mail to TfL and also the reply that they send
you. I trust you have also advised them of your failure to find a simple
tab on what is a main page of the website.
--
Paul C

To set the record straight once and for all Paul, Paul Morant (ie the
member for Coulsdon) was banned from the group for no apparent reason.
When I and several others asked Mr Rivett for an explanation he was
unable or unwilling to provide one so myself and others terminated our
membership of the group and joined Paul M's new group. If you've heard
anything different then you've been wrongly informed.

I haven't changed any subject this thread is about the weather and
TfL's failure to provide any proper information, thankfully Metrobus
were a bit more on the ball. All you've done is throw wild allegations
about like you've done elsewhere before and quite frankly it gets a
bit tiresome after a while.

SNOW JOKE
 

On 3 Dec, 11:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2010 02:35:28 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
To set the record straight once and for all Paul, Paul Morant (ie the
member for Coulsdon) was banned from the group for no apparent reason.
When I and several others asked Mr Rivett for an explanation he was
unable or unwilling to provide one so myself and others terminated our
membership of the group and joined Paul M's new group. If you've heard
anything different then you've been wrongly informed.

There quite clearly was a reason for the ban and I had that from the
horse's mouth so I am not wrongly informed.

I haven't changed any subject this thread is about the weather and
TfL's failure to provide any proper information, thankfully Metrobus
were a bit more on the ball. All you've done is throw wild allegations
about like you've done elsewhere before and quite frankly it gets a
bit tiresome after a while.

No George. The post you made was about the *non existence* of
information about the impact of the weather on TfL's bus services on the
TfL website. I have clearly explained to you where to find the
information. You have not acknowledged in any subsequent post whether
you have subsequently found the information and whether you think it is
accurate or not. You said you have E Mailed TfL to complain about
something that you admitted in this thread you could not find. Your
inability to find it does not mean that it was not on the website. You
have now changed the complaint above to say "failure to provide any
proper information" which is not the same as providing *no* information.

I have not thrown wild accusations anywhere. *Your inability or
unwillingness to recognise what people say to you in good faith is the
thing that is tiresome.
--
Paul C

There may well have been a reason for the ban but Mr Rivett wasn't
willing to explain it to me, Robert or several others that enquired.
What exactly did you hear from the horses mouth? And who is 'the
horse' in this particular case? I'm getting a tad confused.

Clearly nobody else on here is interested in this 'debate' so I see no
point in prolonging it, I'm sure it'll be of interest to one or two
members of another group, well I know one will be highly excited about
it, LOL!!

SNOW JOKE
 

On 3 Dec, 09:39, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Mizter T writes

I expect the TLRN [1] roads to be so treated (and indeed
they were and are), but I got the impression that at least some
Boroughs were making the effort to ensure that other roads (even some
perhaps a little off the well beaten track) which are on bus routes
got gritted too.

Presumably this was as a result of the policy to prioritise clearing
access to bus garages and bus routes (amongst other things) that was
drawn-up by TfL and the London boroughs after snow problems last year.
If so, it's good to see it working.
--
Paul Terry

There were reports of buses on route 3 taking anything up to 3-4 hours
just to get from their Beddington base to Crystal Palace before they
even thought about picking passengers up.