Am I missing something in the storm today over the £58m of so that
Oyster users are 'overcharged'? I can't see anything saying what the
default position should be for people who fail to touch out. There's not
been any barriers on most of the DLR in any case.

E.

On Jan 7, 11:12*pm, eastender wrote:
Am I missing something in the storm today over the £58m of so that
Oyster users are 'overcharged'? I can't see anything saying what the
default position should be for people who fail to touch out. There's not
been any barriers on most of the DLR in any case.

E.

I think it's the wrong scandal, as usual, given that it is usually
possible to avoid, with a bit of alertness.

No focus on all the people who are charged when they do touch in and
out correctly, but hit timeout issues.

No focus on the outrageous cash fares, which might as well be called
penalty fares for using cash, and are at the same rates.

No focus on the reduced accessibility, delays and overcrowding
resulting from the way that people are channelled in order to be able
to touch in and out. (Down my way, examples are closing the useful
exit at Brockley, forcing people to queue to walk up stairs and jam
into a narrow bridge, and not installing a reader at one of the most
popular exits at Lewisham, forcing people to jam dangerously into a
cramped area at the other end of a subway where barriers have been
shoehorned in.)

Not enough focus on the hiking and withdrawal of caps, putting up
fares by over 70% for some people (although it was raised a while
back).

On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 10:50:57 +0000,
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 23:12:14 +0000, eastender wrote:

I hold two Oyster cards - a staff one and a PAYG one for privilege NR
travel. I can struggle at times to find a validator at some interchange
points to allow me to end my staff journey and commence a NR one with
the other card. Stratford is something of nightmare in this respect even
though it has retained interchange validators. Other places have lost
them completely and I'd either have to use PAYG over a section where I
get free travel or else exit to street and re-enter at the interchange
point. I'm very much a minority case so I am not moaning, merely
remarking that it can be an "effort" at times.


Are you sure you're a minority case? Anyone with point to point NR
tickets that start or end within Oyster territory will have the same
problem.

For example I sometimes do Watford Junction - Kew Gardens changing at
Willesden Junction. I have no idea if I'm allowed to enter at Watford
Junction on my NR ticket and then just touch my oyster on the pink
validator at Willesden Junction or whether I have to enter and exit
again.

It says on the Single fare finder: "When you pay as you go, you must
touch your Oyster card on a yellow card reader at the start and end of
your journey. If you do not you will be charged a maximum Oyster fare."

Up until now it's been the same price from Watford Junction using PAYG
so I've just used Oyster the entire route. I notice that it's now 5p
cheaper to use my NR ticket to Willesden Junction - it's not enough to
care about so I'll continue to use PAYG the entire route rather than
risk goodness knows how much in fines.

It's never happened but it's possible that one day I might suddenly
realize that I need to change to the Bakerloo line at Harrow and
Wealdstone rather than go all the way into Euston. I have absolutely no
idea which stations might have validators on the platforms or where they
might be so that I could sensibly switch to Oyster.

You are probably unusual in that you regularly make journeys where
you're using split ticketing. Almost everyone else who is doing this
will already be "out of their comfort zone" because if they were
regularly doing something like this then they'd probably already have
the right zones on their NR ticket - you don't have to do that much
Oyster travel before adding all zones to your NR ticket becomes cost
effective.


I rather suspect there are cultural factors that allow these more
relaxed regimes to work whereas we have a far more complex one to deal
with fraud. The downside seems to be that the system is sufficiently
opaque to people that they are being tripped up by it. I have some
doubts as to how long that might be tolerated. This latest press article
is not the first on this topic and a strong public reaction has not yet
emerged. I wonder how long it might take before one does.

Possibly it won't because the losses are spread out over many, many
people. For example, my girlfriend's unresolved journey couldn't be
"fixed" because she wasn't going to use oyster again for more than 6
weeks and "there's no other way to give a refund." It just isn't worth
battling these golliaths unless you're prepared to sacrifice hours and
hours of your time for "a point of priciple". From the "golliath's" POV
the best thing to do is just completely ignore the issue. 99.95% of
people will give up and the remaining 5 in 10000 will win in court by
default and it will cost 5GBP + 75GBP costs. i.e. for every 50000 that
is incorrectly collected they'll end up paying out 400.

I've done this "point of principle" thing although over 40GBP rather
than 5GBP. Many letters, much photocopying, moneyclaim online etc
(didn't actually submit them or go to court because barclaycard refunded
the money when they got the copy of the claims forms and, presumably,
reclaimed it from the retailer).

Now, if one could "charge" their equivalent hourly salary when taking on
these "point of principle" cases then the equation would change. In the
short term the unwaged, unemployed etc still wouldn't have much recourse
but it will only take a few people making a claim for 5GBP plus 1000GBP
costs and succeeding and it being reported and suddenly the companies
would have much more incentive to get these things sorted when they do
go wrong and also to stop them happening in the first place because it
suddenly becomes cost effective for many more people to make a fuss.

To be fair to oyster, except for my girlfriends problem everything else
that I've chased up about has been sorted out without any issue - even
my mistakes when I first got my NR season ticket but made one journey
completely by PAYG and another automatically touched out when I left the
station triggering an unresolved journey. I just sent a photocopy of my
season ticket together with a copy of my journey history and a note
saying that as I wouldn't be using PAYG any more could they please
refund by cheque and a cheque arrived a couple of weeks later (with a
note apologizing for the delay). But a couple of times when it's gone
wrong I've just thought "I can't be bothered."

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

In article ,
(Tim Woodall) wrote:

Possibly it won't because the losses are spread out over many, many
people. For example, my girlfriend's unresolved journey couldn't be
"fixed" because she wasn't going to use oyster again for more than 6
weeks and "there's no other way to give a refund." It just isn't worth
battling these golliaths unless you're prepared to sacrifice hours and
hours of your time for "a point of priciple". From the "golliath's" POV
the best thing to do is just completely ignore the issue. 99.95% of
people will give up and the remaining 5 in 10000 will win in court by
default and it will cost 5GBP + 75GBP costs. i.e. for every 50000 that
is incorrectly collected they'll end up paying out 400.

I've managed to arrange a refund after more than 6 weeks. We agreed a date
range and station by email.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 08 Jan 2011 08:07:03 -0600,
wrote:
In article ,
(Tim Woodall) wrote:

Possibly it won't because the losses are spread out over many, many
people. For example, my girlfriend's unresolved journey couldn't be
"fixed" because she wasn't going to use oyster again for more than 6
weeks and "there's no other way to give a refund." It just isn't worth
battling these golliaths unless you're prepared to sacrifice hours and
hours of your time for "a point of priciple". From the "golliath's" POV
the best thing to do is just completely ignore the issue. 99.95% of
people will give up and the remaining 5 in 10000 will win in court by
default and it will cost 5GBP + 75GBP costs. i.e. for every 50000 that
is incorrectly collected they'll end up paying out 400.

I've managed to arrange a refund after more than 6 weeks. We agreed a date
range and station by email.

I'm sure it is possible. And I also now know it is possible to arrange a
refund by cheque.

But, presumably TfL prefer to do it via oyster pickup and that becomes
"It isn't possible" from the call centre staff and, unless you know they
are wrong, it's hard to argue. Likewise, when she was back down south
and tried to get the refund done the journey had expired off the system
and it couldn't be done - I don't know if that is true or not.

It's hard to argue even when you know they are wrong. My NR season
ticket stopped working a few days ago. In the morning I couldn't get out
at Euston and was let out and went to the ticket office to get it
replaced and it didn't seem to be a problem - but the computers were down.

In the evening my ticket still didn't work - as I had 15 mins before my
train I went to the ticket window again. "No. I cannot do it because you
aren't on our system. You've got to get a letter from your company
saying that you've bought the ticket" (or something like that - I
couldn't work out what the letter was supposed to say - and I would
guess that after the request has gone to HR, it's been up through legal,
back again via payroll and then to me I might possibly be able to get a
letter like that after three months). This is infront of a poster saying
"New barriers at Euston. If your ticket doesn't work then go to any LM
ticket office to get your ticket replaced"

No amount of arguing was going to change her mind. So the guard who had
let me in originally (and then let me out to replace my ticket when I
realized there was no queue and I'd got 15 mins) let me in again, and
commented about "that's not what I was told by my management."

So I got my replacement ticket 30 mins later at Watford Junction. I
wasn't on the system so he just asked for my address and added me.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

"MIG" wrote in message

On Jan 7, 11:12 pm, eastender wrote:
Am I missing something in the storm today over the £58m of so that
Oyster users are 'overcharged'? I can't see anything saying what the
default position should be for people who fail to touch out. There's
not been any barriers on most of the DLR in any case.

E.

I think it's the wrong scandal, as usual, given that it is usually
possible to avoid, with a bit of alertness.

No focus on all the people who are charged when they do touch in and
out correctly, but hit timeout issues.

I had a case recently where there was a signal failure on the route
home, which severely delayed numerous trains (at least a dozen) on the
Picc and District. They eventually got the trains moving again, and I
got to my home station over an hour later than I'd have expected. I
touched out correctly, and guessing that I'd have been timed out, I went
to the ticket machine and confirmed that I had indeed been charged
2x£4.30 for the journey, rather than the £2.40 it should have been. I
suspect most other pax wouldn't have thought to do this. I went straight
to the ticket office, which had someone in it, who instantly agreed that
I was due a full refund, but said he couldn't do it immediately as the
office was officially closed by then.

I hoped the system would automatically cancel the overcharge (after all,
it had all the data to do so), but of course it didn't. I couldn't find
a direct way of reporting this on the TfL Web site, so used the
complaint option. A couple of days later I got an apology email, but no
refund. I eventually found an open ticket office without a long queue,
and after some discussion, persuaded the lady that I was due a refund.
After lots of button pushing, she managed to get one of the overcharges
refunded. I then tried the Oyster helpline, which was distinctly
unhelpful. Only when I reminded the operator that the call was probably
being recorded did he suddenly decide to offer the refund I was owed. It
still took a long discussion with his supervisor to sort it out.

I was only so persistent because I was peeved -- the relatively trivial
amount of money involved certainly didn't warrant so much effort -- and
I suspect that very few of the others affected that night would have
even bothered to try. So the net effect is that TfL probably netted
several thousand pounds of Oyster penalty fares that evening, thanks to
its unreliable signalling and inability to get the trains moving again
quickly. So what's the incentive for TfL to fix its wonky systems, given
that it would lose money by doing so?

In message , at 08:07:03
on Sat, 8 Jan 2011, remarked:
I've managed to arrange a refund after more than 6 weeks. We agreed a date
range and station by email.

That's another issue - I'm due a refund because of some kind of Oyster
hiccup (which they confessed to - I didn't notice at the time), but
haven't been anywhere near London to collect it recently. I also have to
go to the effort of calling them to get the refund "available for
collection", and frankly the whole thing is very off-putting.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message

In message , at
08:07:03 on Sat, 8 Jan 2011, remarked:
I've managed to arrange a refund after more than 6 weeks. We agreed
a date range and station by email.

That's another issue - I'm due a refund because of some kind of Oyster
hiccup (which they confessed to - I didn't notice at the time), but
haven't been anywhere near London to collect it recently. I also have
to go to the effort of calling them to get the refund "available for
collection", and frankly the whole thing is very off-putting.

Yup, and it only stays available for eight days, and only from your
nominated station. I fail to understand why these refunds can't be added
directly to the on-line Oyster balance, and the card updated when it's
next used at any on-line barrier. About the only good thing I've found
is that the Oyster helpline doesn't keep you waiting for ages, or put
you through to a Bangalore call centre where they've never seen an
Oyster card or a Tube train.

On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 11:47:36AM -0000, Recliner wrote:

I had a case recently where there was a signal failure on the route
home, which severely delayed numerous trains (at least a dozen) on the
Picc and District. They eventually got the trains moving again, and I
got to my home station over an hour later than I'd have expected. I
touched out correctly, and guessing that I'd have been timed out, I went
to the ticket machine and confirmed that I had indeed been charged
2x£4.30 for the journey, rather than the £2.40 it should have been. I
suspect most other pax wouldn't have thought to do this. I went straight
to the ticket office, which had someone in it, who instantly agreed that
I was due a full refund, but said he couldn't do it immediately as the
office was officially closed by then.

And of course if you were at a National Rail station there's nothing that
could have been done anyway, because Oyster still isn't properly
implemented there, so you'd have to either use TfL's premium rate phone
line or maybe make a pointless journey (at your own expense) to a TfL
station.

And people wonder why I still don't use Oyster.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

Sobol's Law of Telecom Utilities:
Telcos are malicious; cablecos are simply clueless.

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
k
On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 11:47:36AM -0000, Recliner wrote:

I had a case recently where there was a signal failure on the route
home, which severely delayed numerous trains (at least a dozen) on
the Picc and District. They eventually got the trains moving again,
and I got to my home station over an hour later than I'd have
expected. I touched out correctly, and guessing that I'd have been
timed out, I went to the ticket machine and confirmed that I had
indeed been charged 2x£4.30 for the journey, rather than the £2.40
it should have been. I suspect most other pax wouldn't have thought
to do this. I went straight to the ticket office, which had someone
in it, who instantly agreed that I was due a full refund, but said
he couldn't do it immediately as the office was officially closed by
then.

And of course if you were at a National Rail station there's nothing
that could have been done anyway, because Oyster still isn't properly
implemented there, so you'd have to either use TfL's premium rate
phone line or maybe make a pointless journey (at your own expense) to
a TfL station.

And as I went on to point out, the helpline was less than helpful, and
visiting another TfL ticket office only got me half the refund owed.
They really do go out of their way to make it difficult to get back the
excess charges they've helped themselves to.