In message , at 05:05:39
on Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:
That just shows that ScotRail want to ban it.

Well, it doesn't *just* say that ScotRail wants to ban it. It also
ays that Transport Scotland, ATOC, Passenger Focus and the Secretary
of State for Transport are happy with that (mis)interpretation of the
rules.

It just means that they haven't thought it through. Even government
ministers lose in court (Home Secretaries seem to be more prone to this
than others, ie. more prone to capture by their misguided advisers; or
is it just that they get sued more often because the stakes are higher?)
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:38:15 on
Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

I didn't realise that exceptions to the through train rule were
possible, but there is apparently a (fairly new) such easement for
some loop line (I'm sure others can fill in the details) to prevent
you from going the long way round the loop even though it's a direct
train.

"Customers travelling from Richmond to St Margarets and beyond may not
travel via Twickenham. This easement apllies(sic) in both directions."

...sounded plausible for a moment, but (eg) Feltham is "beyond St
Margarets", and it seems very odd not to allow travel via Twickenham (the
only other way is via Barnes and Brentford, but that's not actually a
loop).

Are some of these easements only put in for temporary purposes during
engineering works, to force the planner to send you only on other routes.
If the line was closed at Twickenham for instance? Clearly some in the list
are dated, but maybe many more should be?

Paul

"Roy Badami" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim.... wrote:
If the rule was "split tickets can only be used for a journey if the train
stops at the point of the split", the rule would be simple. And lots of
people would be disadvantaged.

But generally split tickets *can* oly be used for a journey if the
train stops at the point of the split.

The exceptions are where both tickets are zonal tickets, and where one
ticket is a season ticket and the other is not.

I know, but that difference is what the PP was complaining about.

tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 04:18:20 on
Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:
So I think your second interpretation is correct and the Routeing Guide
does not have any power to ban you from using through trains or the
shortest route.

This FoI request seems to suggest otherwise:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...l_rail_routein

The pertinent extracts:

Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle
distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been
approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved
these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be
given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are
negative easements. [...] A negative easement however as in the
Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to
Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy
which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the
routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through
train providing the journey.

They are confused. (It won't be the first or last time). Because the
Routing Guide doesn't allow Direct Trains, the NCoC does.

In short - the NCoC defines "permitted routes", of which those appearing
in the routing guide are only one of three different classes (the other
two being Direct trains and Shortest route).

The NCoC goes on to say:

(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular
locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.

These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

So, it's entirely possible for TPTB to create tickets for the Fife Circle
which can only be used in one direction, but they would have to be marked
*on the ticket* as (eg) "Not Kirkcaldy".

There's nothing inherently wrong with inventing this restriction, but they
are simply using the wrong instrument to implement it.

What I don't understand is why there is actually a need to ban this.

As long as the existence of this journey doesn't create any BoJ
opportunities, what the hell difference does it make to the operator if
someone wants to sit on a train to Rosyth via Kirkcaldy? How many track
bashing peeps who would take advantage of this, are there?

On 27 Feb, 11:51, "tim...." wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message

...



In message , at 04:18:20 on
Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:
So I think your second interpretation is correct and the Routeing Guide
does not have any power to ban you from using through trains or the
shortest route.

This FoI request seems to suggest otherwise:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...l_rail_routein

The pertinent extracts:

Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle
distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been
approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved
these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be
given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are
negative easements. [...] A negative easement however as in the
Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to
Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy
which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the
routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through
train providing the journey.

They are confused. (It won't be the first or last time). Because the
Routing Guide doesn't allow Direct Trains, the NCoC does.

In short - the NCoC defines "permitted routes", of which those appearing
in the routing guide are only one of three different classes (the other
two being Direct trains and Shortest route).

The NCoC goes on to say:

* *(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
* * * * * * * (i) *routes passing through, or avoiding, particular
* * * * * * * * * *locations; or
* * * * * * * (ii) the most direct route.

* * * *These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

So, it's entirely possible for TPTB to create tickets for the Fife Circle
which can only be used in one direction, but they would have to be marked
*on the ticket* as (eg) "Not Kirkcaldy".

There's nothing inherently wrong with inventing this restriction, but they
are simply using the wrong instrument to implement it.

What I don't understand is why there is actually a need to ban this.

As long as the existence of this journey doesn't create any BoJ
opportunities, what the hell difference does it make to the operator if
someone wants to sit on a train to Rosyth via Kirkcaldy? *How many track
bashing peeps who would take advantage of this, are there?

Presumably it does create BoJ opportunities.

The solution, surely, is to increase the price of the Any Permitted
Route ticket to Rosyth to reflect the distance via Kirkcaldy and
introduce a new Rosyth route Direct ticket at the current price. That
has been done in lots of other places. Or, even simpler than that,
split the train into two in the timetable. That's been done elsewhere
too.

South West Trains (or their predecessors) used to run through trains
from Waterloo to Littlehampton via Eastleigh. On my training course
this was used as an example of a case where the through train rule
applied even though the route was not otherwise valid. The through
route principle was intended to make it nice and easy for customers -
if the train went there the ticket was valid. Now this is being
undermined.

This is a dangerous precedent and the fact that it is happening in
Scotland is worrying as the precedent could apply everywhere despite
no-one in England or Wales having a say in it. (I take it that "formal
approval by the Secretary of State" is an error as this would be dealt
with by the Scottish Transport Minister.)

As other posters have said, however, it is probably invalid as it is
the NCoC that permits the use of through trains, not the Routing
Guide.

But leaving all this aside (and not being too familiar with the rail
geography of Central Scotland), why the hell is a train running to
Rosyth via Kirkaldy anyway?

In message , at 11:51:31 on Sun, 27 Feb
2011, tim.... remarked:
So, it's entirely possible for TPTB to create tickets for the Fife Circle
which can only be used in one direction, but they would have to be marked
*on the ticket* as (eg) "Not Kirkcaldy".

There's nothing inherently wrong with inventing this restriction, but they
are simply using the wrong instrument to implement it.

What I don't understand is why there is actually a need to ban this.

As long as the existence of this journey doesn't create any BoJ
opportunities, what the hell difference does it make to the operator if
someone wants to sit on a train to Rosyth via Kirkcaldy? How many track
bashing peeps who would take advantage of this, are there?

Do you remember Clive Feather's classic query when the Routing Guide
first came out, about whether it was possible to travel from Finsbury
Park to (I think) London terminals via Cambridge (ie to Liverpool St).

If that that were the case, then a Finsbury Park to London season ticket
could also be used as a Cambridge to London season (because season
tickets are valid over any section of a route where a single is valid).

I haven't looked in detail at the situation in Fife, but perhaps a
similar issue is involved. (Obviously, because of a loop train, rather
than a bug in the RG which was Clive's concern; assume for a moment
there is a Kings Cross to Liverpool St via Cambridge loop train).
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 16:21:37 on
Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

N.B. The doubling back rule is for journey from FPK to specific
destinations - I'm not suggeting there's a general overarching
permission to double back at KGX

It's only for "Cambridge and beyond", so I suspect it's there for the
trains formerly known as Cambridge Cruiser.

Aha, noted. I got quite excited there for a minute!

tom

--
Let's roll on the floor!

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami wrote:

In article ,
Peter Smyth wrote:

"Roy Badami" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Peter Smyth wrote:

So I think your second interpretation is correct and the Routeing
Guide does not have any power to ban you from using through trains or
the shortest route.

This FoI request seems to suggest otherwise:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...l_rail_routein

The pertinent extracts:

Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle
distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been
approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved
these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be
given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are
negative easements. [...] A negative easement however as in the
Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to
Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy
which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the
routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through
train providing the journey.

That just shows that ScotRail want to ban it.

Well, it doesn't *just* say that ScotRail wants to ban it. It also ays
that Transport Scotland, ATOC, Passenger Focus and the Secretary of
State for Transport are happy with that (mis)interpretation of the
rules.

For the record, i will happily bung a tenner in if anyone wants to take a
challenge against this to the European Court.

tom

--
Let's roll on the floor!

In article i,
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 16:21:37 on
Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

permission to double back at KGX

It's only for "Cambridge and beyond", so I suspect it's there for the
trains formerly known as Cambridge Cruiser.

Aha, noted. I got quite excited there for a minute!

tom

--
Let's roll on the floor!

You're not a Cambridge Cruiser then !

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

On Feb 27, 10:15*pm, Nick Leverton wrote:

In article i,
Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roland Perry wrote:

permission to double back at KGX

It's only for "Cambridge and beyond", so I suspect it's there
for the trains formerly known as Cambridge Cruiser.

Aha, noted. I got quite excited there for a minute!

You're not a Cambridge Cruiser then !

Did Mr A experience 'a moment of madness' just then...?