On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 04:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
Neil Williams wrote:
On Apr 15, 11:48=A0am, wrote:

Why not? If something is time critical using the tube is a bad idea for
anyone, wheelchair bound or not, as it simply can't be relied on.

And London's roads can? Don't be silly. Most of my rail journeys are
pretty punctual these days.

No , you can't rely on any one road but you can listen to the traffic news
and divert as appropriate. A train generally can't. I'd certainly never use
the tube to go the heathrow - yet again this morning the service from hatton
to heathrow was apparently suspended for god knows what reason. And no doubt
LU gave its usual shoulder shrug about stuck passengers and did less than
bugger all to help them out. I live in london and I have no idea how to get
from hatton cross to the terminals by bus - what chance would a tourist who
doesn't speak much english stand?

Like the people who think luggage, bicycles and standing passengers in
the way of doors are a serious safety issue, you're making the mistake
of comparing a train, an electric one at that, with an aircraft.

Yes they can be a safety issue - obviously not as much as on an aircraft.
But its not just that - in the rush hour where you literally can hardly
move how do you expect to squeeze a wheelchair on? Even luggage causes
serious problems especially on the tube.

People tend to help people in the event of disasters, yes.

Maybe, maybe not. If theres a right panic on probably not.

I thought we were talking about mainline or LO railway stations, which
are mainly accessible and are far cheaper to make so. FWIW, to make

Easier , but still not easy. Most platforms arn't at train floor height so
they'd have to be raised or the track lowered (though the situation in
europe must be almost impossible to solve , they barely have platforms in
some countries).

the District/Circle/H&C/Met line stations accessible is quite easy -
mostly it just requires adding short lifts. The deep Tube is harder

Umm , just adding a lift into a 150 year old structure is not necessarily
a simple exercise.

(except new build like the Jubilee Line). Though I don't recall
seeing wheelchair spaces on deep Tube trains (the standbacks on the
Picc are for luggage for Heathrow passengers!), but if there are they
will otherwise provide room to stand, not wasted space.

I think from 95 stock onwards there have been wheelchair spaces in tube trains.
I've yet to see one being used by a wheelchair.

B2003

On Apr 15, 12:38*pm, wrote:

No , you can't rely on any one road but you can listen to the traffic news
and divert as appropriate.

Sometimes, not always. And you can also divert from one railway line
to another, or from one bus to another. You can't do it if stuck
between stations, but then you can't do it if stuck between junctions
on a road, either. Those spending 2+ hours waiting on the M1 this
morning will no doubt realise this.

I'd certainly never use
the tube to go the heathrow - yet again this morning the service from hatton
to heathrow was apparently suspended for god knows what reason. And no doubt
LU gave its usual shoulder shrug about stuck passengers and did less than
bugger all to help them out. I live in london and I have no idea how to get
from hatton cross to the terminals by bus - what chance would a tourist who
doesn't speak much english stand?

They'd probably take a taxi from there if in a hurry. Wouldn't cost
much against the cost of missing a flight, particularly from LHR, from
which no low-cost airlines operate.

Yes they can be a safety issue

Not much of one. The only case where they are really a safety issue
is if they flew around the train in a collision or emergency braking.
Again one of those things that are rare enough not really to be
important.

But its not just that - in the rush hour where you literally can hardly
move how do you expect to squeeze a wheelchair on?

You have to be reasonable. If you've ever been on a train in India,
you'll note that UK rush-hour trains are usually not so crowded you
couldn't get a few extra people on board if you tried. But a
wheelchair user similarly has to be realistic that they might not be
able to take the first train out because they physically won't fit.

Even luggage causes
serious problems especially on the tube.

It causes a mild nuisance, IMO. Not really much more than that.

People tend to help people in the event of disasters, yes.

Maybe, maybe not. If theres a right panic on probably not.

I cannot envisage a situation where there would be a "right panic on"
to evacuate a train. Big fires don't really happen on trains to that
extent (the last time I can think of when one did in the UK was one of
the GWML crashes). They don't really happen at all where no fuel is
involved. The fire on an LM train last week, for instance, killed
only the person that started it.

Easier , but still not easy. Most platforms arn't at train floor height so
they'd have to be raised or the track lowered (though the situation in
europe must be almost impossible to solve , they barely have platforms in
some countries).

You use portable ramps as are used throughout the mainline. Most busy
Tube stations have station staff, and one presumes a member of staff
could be arranged at another station in advance. That's how the
mainline works; I don't see why LUL would be any different.

In mainland Europe you tend to find that instead of portable ramps
they have small lifts. The only real difference is that the equipment
is a bit bigger, a bit more expensive and takes up more room than a
ramp - the way it's done isn't really any different.

Umm , just adding a lift into a 150 year old structure is not necessarily
a simple exercise.

Not necessarily, no. But as these are just below the surface it's a
lot easier than on the deep Tube.

Neil

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
Neil Williams wrote:
Sometimes, not always. And you can also divert from one railway line
to another, or from one bus to another. You can't do it if stuck

Well that depends if there are 2 seperate railway lines going the same
way which generally isn't the case. If Thameslink breaks down you're not
going to think "I know , i'll walk 10 miles to the nearest ECML station and
get a train there".

between stations, but then you can't do it if stuck between junctions
on a road, either. Those spending 2+ hours waiting on the M1 this
morning will no doubt realise this.

That only applies to motorways. Most A roads and all minor roads in towns
have frequent junctions with other roads that you can escape down and
these days most people have a satnav that can find an alternative route.

They'd probably take a taxi from there if in a hurry. Wouldn't cost

You're assuming theres a taxi rank there and not just some scruffy minicab
office hidden down a back street.

You have to be reasonable. If you've ever been on a train in India,
you'll note that UK rush-hour trains are usually not so crowded you
couldn't get a few extra people on board if you tried. But a

Depends if you want a fight or not. People tend to have a limit to how much
they're prepared to be squashed up against the next person. The indians
and japanese probably have a higher limit than europeans but they tend to
be skinnier too so you can physically fit more of them in the same space.

Maybe, maybe not. If theres a right panic on probably not.

I cannot envisage a situation where there would be a "right panic on"
to evacuate a train. Big fires don't really happen on trains to that

Bombs. Also some people with even mild claustrophobia start to panic if
confined for too long.

You use portable ramps as are used throughout the mainline. Most busy
Tube stations have station staff, and one presumes a member of staff
could be arranged at another station in advance. That's how the
mainline works; I don't see why LUL would be any different.

It might work on off peak hours - at busy stations in the rush hour? No chance.
Anyway , they seem to be de-manning the tube , your idea would require extra
staff.

B2003

In article ,
Neil Williams wrote:
Though I don't recall
seeing wheelchair spaces on deep Tube trains (the standbacks on the
Picc are for luggage for Heathrow passengers!),

You don't look had enough

At least northern, jubilee, and central have them.

but if there are they
will otherwise provide room to stand, not wasted space.

Northern, and Central have tip-up seats; the Jubilee has standing
room (which is fairly well used in the rush hour).

If i recall correctly, that is. I don't use the tube as much as I
used to (I tend to use a bike instead).

--
Mike Bristow

On Apr 15, 3:10*pm, Mike Bristow wrote:

Northern, and Central have tip-up seats; the Jubilee has standing
room (which is fairly well used in the rush hour).

You're right now I think about it. I tend to avoid the Northern Line,
though, and if I stand I have to stand in the middle of the coach
rather than there (need a lot of headroom!)

Neil

On Apr 15, 3:06*pm, wrote:

Well that depends if there are 2 seperate railway lines going the same
way which generally isn't the case. If Thameslink breaks down you're not
going to think "I know , i'll walk 10 miles to the nearest ECML station and
get a train there".

No. But you might, either on your own or with a group of other
passengers, take a taxi there.

But in the case of London, there is a dense network of public
transport, both road and rail (and indeed river). If one bit of it
breaks, there are other options.

That only applies to motorways. Most A roads and all minor roads in towns
have frequent junctions with other roads that you can escape down and
these days most people have a satnav that can find an alternative route.

Sometimes. A blocked road often leads to almost-gridlock on others.

You're assuming theres a taxi rank there and not just some scruffy minicab
office hidden down a back street.

True. I imagine if the black cabs waiting at LHR heard of such a
problem there would soon not be a shortage of those, though.

Bombs.

I'm sure I remember reading that on the occasion when there were bombs
on the tube there was not blind panic to evacuate. But as bombs on
the Tube are extremely rare, it doesn't seem to be a reason not to
carry wheelchairs or luggage.

Also some people with even mild claustrophobia start to panic if
confined for too long.

This is true. I doubt, though, it would send them running into
tunnels in a panic, as the tunnels are equally claustrophobic.

It might work on off peak hours - at busy stations in the rush hour? No chance.
Anyway , they seem to be de-manning the tube , your idea would require extra
staff.

It just about works on the mainline, though is easier on trains with
guards, admittedly.

As for de-manning, busy Tube stations still tend to have platform
staff, largely because the DOO monitors aren't good enough for the
driver to see properly if there is an issue before closing doors/
departing. The destaffing is mainly in the area of ticket offices,
which have no bearing at all on accessibility at platform level as
they'd never usually go down onto the platform.

Neil

In article
,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Apr 15, 11:48*am, wrote:

Why not? If something is time critical using the tube is a bad idea
for anyone, wheelchair bound or not, as it simply can't be relied on.

And London's roads can? Don't be silly. Most of my rail journeys are
pretty punctual these days.

Because wheelchairs are an obstruction in confined spaces and could
potentially be highly dangerous if a fast evacuation is required in
a tunnel.

Like the people who think luggage, bicycles and standing passengers in
the way of doors are a serious safety issue, you're making the mistake
of comparing a train, an electric one at that, with an aircraft.

With an aircraft, due to the amount of fuel present, an accident very
often results in a serious and fast-burning fire. The safest option
in the event of an accident is therefore usually, subject to the
engines having stopped, to get out as quickly as possible. The rules
on operating aircraft, such as ensuring that the passengers in the
exit row are able-bodied so they will be able to open the door and not
get in the way, and ensuring that luggage may not be placed in the way
of said doors, are based on this.

With a train there is far less fuel (none in the case of an electric
train) and the bodyshell is generally more substantial, with proper
glass double-glazed windows rather than plastic ones, so any fire that
occurs outside is likely to stay outside for some time, and any
influence inside (even explosives) are unlikely to cause a serious
fire. Also, in the immediate aftermath of a problem, there are likely
to be trains moving on lines adjacent to the train concerned.

Therefore, one of the most dangerous things to do in the event of a
rail accident is to evacuate quickly[1]. You are better to remain on
board while the situation is assessed, moving to another carriage if
necessary. You'll note that all the safety posters in trains say
this, as distinct from the ones in aircraft that basically say "get
out"[2] and explain how.

By the time it has been decided to evacuate, therefore, any bicycles
or luggage could be thrown out of the doors if in the way, and there
will be plenty of time for a wheelchair passenger to be got out.

[1] There was the case of the runaway engineer's train a while ago
where this *might* have been an exception for those in the rear couple
of coaches. But this - and more important knowing this - is so rare
it's almost not worth considering.

[2] This has caused problems in the event of ditchings, where people
have panicked, opened exit doors and the water has come in. But
overall, as ditchings are fairly rare (just as serious fires on trains
are), this is still the best advice.

And who is going to carry you out? Would you rely on the goodwill of
other passengers?

People tend to help people in the event of disasters, yes.

Aside from that most tube stations arn't wheelchair accessable
and spending a billion on making them so for the tiny minority of
people who'd take advantage of it is a waste of public money.

I thought we were talking about mainline or LO railway stations, which
are mainly accessible and are far cheaper to make so. FWIW, to make
the District/Circle/H&C/Met line stations accessible is quite easy -
mostly it just requires adding short lifts. The deep Tube is harder
(except new build like the Jubilee Line). Though I don't recall
seeing wheelchair spaces on deep Tube trains (the standbacks on the
Picc are for luggage for Heathrow passengers!), but if there are they
will otherwise provide room to stand, not wasted space.

I'm evacuated from a train with my bicycle. Wires down near Welwyn GC
station. The only complication was getting the bike down the ladder, for
which I received assistance from staff or fellow passengers.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:01:51 -0500,
wrote:
I'm evacuated from a train with my bicycle. Wires down near Welwyn
GC
station. The only complication was getting the bike down the
ladder, for
which I received assistance from staff or fellow passengers.

Must admit to being pleasantly surprised someone didn't mutter "H&S"
and make you leave it.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On 15/04/2011 09:54, d wrote:


People don't expect to fit a non folding bike on a bus

.... in Britain. In some places abroad, however....


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:01:51 -0500,
wrote:
I'm evacuated from a train with my bicycle. Wires down near
Welwyn GC station. The only complication was getting the bike
down the ladder, for which I received assistance from staff or
fellow passengers.

Must admit to being pleasantly surprised someone didn't mutter
"H&S" and make you leave it.

I don't think I gave them the chance.

The experience also demonstrated how ludicrous is the blanket ban on bikes
being carried on rail replacement services. As most of them are provided
by coaches rather than buses there is actually plenty of space underneath
to accommodate bikes on much the same scale as on trains. My daughter has
been unable to bring her bike home from uni this weekend because there is
a blockade between Waterbeach and Ely again this weekend. All the rail
replacement buses this year have been actually coaches as far as I have
seen.

In the Welwyn wires down incident I was lucky that one of the rail
replacement buses they summoned up was a coach which was happy to take my
bike to get us to Potter's Bar. Most of the rail replacements were in fact
buses. In the circs the railway accepted they had to carry my bike. Dunno
what happened to the other guy with a bike, though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel