The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who runs a guest house
in Streatham and he was telling me how visitors to London who use PAYG
Oystercards are still being ripped off.

Two (of many) examples.

A guest with £15 on card gets a bus to Brixton, Victoria Line to
Stockwell, Northern Line to Bank and DLR to Cutty Sark and does the
return journey later that day, but when he boards a bus at Brixton he
gets a double bleep and the driver tells him he has no credit and will
have to pay to travel to Streatham. Being able to speak on a little
English and not being familiar with the system he pays up.

A husband and wife go out for the day and make various journies
throughout the day, despite the fact that they have bothed touched in
and out and the same locations they have both had vastly different
amounts deducted from their cards.

How much longer are people going to be ripped off like this? And
surely the London Tourist Board and similar organisations should be
telling visitors to London NOT to use Oyster and to buy a ODTC where
appropriate instead?

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"George" wrote:

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who runs a guest house
in Streatham and he was telling me how visitors to London who use PAYG
Oystercards are still being ripped off.

Two (of many) examples.

A guest with £15 on card gets a bus to Brixton, Victoria Line to
Stockwell, Northern Line to Bank and DLR to Cutty Sark and does the
return journey later that day, but when he boards a bus at Brixton he
gets a double bleep and the driver tells him he has no credit and will
have to pay to travel to Streatham. Being able to speak on a little
English and not being familiar with the system he pays up.

My guess is simply that he failed to touch-out on arrival at Cutty Sark or
failed to touch-in when starting his return journey from Cutty Sark.


A husband and wife go out for the day and make various journies
throughout the day, despite the fact that they have bothed touched in
and out and the same locations they have both had vastly different
amounts deducted from their cards.

That's simply not possible - if any two cards are touched in and out at the
same places then the exact same thing will happen to both of them -
computers are like that, as much as people might like to think that things
are happening randomly they are not.

(Did one card have a railcard discount loaded onto it? Did one card have
auto top-up enabled? Seems less likely if they were visitors, but either
could result in them ending up with different balances on their cards at the
end of the day.)


How much longer are people going to be ripped off like this? And
surely the London Tourist Board and similar organisations should be
telling visitors to London NOT to use Oyster and to buy a ODTC where
appropriate instead?

I think you should go to speakers' corner and have a good old shout about
it.

One particular thing I've seen many people doing is trying to touch-out or
touch-in on the wrong Oyster pads at station gatelines, where those
gatelines are unattended and hence left open - i.e. people leaving the
station don't look for the green arrow light to indicate that the gate is an
exit gate and instead try to touch-out on the inactive Oyster pad on the
wrong side of an entry gate is (or vice versa for people entering a station
and trying to use an inactive Oyster pad on an exit gate) - also people
walking through open gates before then remembering they need to touch-out,
but instead touching-in on Oyster pads on entry gates. Part of the problem
here can be that the lights on the gate's PED unit (? - it stands for
something that I can't recall off-hand) are sometimes rather faint.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 04/05/2011 15:31, Mizter T wrote:

One particular thing I've seen many people doing is trying to touch-out
or touch-in on the wrong Oyster pads at station gatelines, where those
gatelines are unattended and hence left open - i.e. people leaving the
station don't look for the green arrow light to indicate that the gate
is an exit gate and instead try to touch-out on the inactive Oyster pad
on the wrong side of an entry gate is (or vice versa for people entering
a station and trying to use an inactive Oyster pad on an exit gate) -
also people walking through open gates before then remembering they need
to touch-out, but instead touching-in on Oyster pads on entry gates.
Part of the problem here can be that the lights on the gate's PED unit
(? - it stands for something that I can't recall off-hand) are sometimes
rather faint.

Oh! I had always assumed that there was no difference between entrance
and exit gates in this situation - ie the pads behave the same as those
at ungated stations, being used for both entry and exit. If the
situation is as Mizter T describes it ought to be publicised much more -
unattended gate lines are far from rare.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On Wed, 4 May 2011 07:09:58 -0700 (PDT), George
wrote:

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who runs a guest house
in Streatham and he was telling me how visitors to London who use PAYG
Oystercards are still being ripped off.

Two (of many) examples.

A guest with £15 on card gets a bus to Brixton, Victoria Line to
Stockwell, Northern Line to Bank and DLR to Cutty Sark and does the
return journey later that day, but when he boards a bus at Brixton he
gets a double bleep and the driver tells him he has no credit and will
have to pay to travel to Streatham. Being able to speak on a little
English and not being familiar with the system he pays up.

A husband and wife go out for the day and make various journies
throughout the day, despite the fact that they have bothed touched in
and out and the same locations they have both had vastly different
amounts deducted from their cards.

How much longer are people going to be ripped off like this? And
surely the London Tourist Board and similar organisations should be
telling visitors to London NOT to use Oyster and to buy a ODTC where
appropriate instead?

To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

There is also the facility to check journeys on the website and to
have 'errors' corrected.

I think you go too far in condemning a whole system because of one or
two difficulties. I will continue to use my Oyster card as a highly
convenient method of payment.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Definitely a failed touch-out at Cutty Sark!!

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Mizter T wrote:

"George" wrote:


A husband and wife go out for the day and make various journies
throughout the day, despite the fact that they have bothed touched in
and out and the same locations they have both had vastly different
amounts deducted from their cards.

That's simply not possible - if any two cards are touched in and out at the
same places then the exact same thing will happen to both of them -
computers are like that, as much as people might like to think that things
are happening randomly they are not.

Oh, come on. This is Oyster. Computers aren't the only part of the
hardware. There are plenty of other things to go wrong.

In my experience, there seem to be faulty pads out there, that read
the card and open the gate, but don't always manage to write back to
the card saying the journey is completed. Sometimes they do managed
it, sometimes they don't. (It's either that or I've got a faulty card
that doesn't always like being written to.)

If that happened to the husband but not the wife (or vice versa) then
that could explain the difference.


One particular thing I've seen many people doing is trying to touch-out or
touch-in on the wrong Oyster pads at station gatelines, where those
gatelines are unattended and hence left open - i.e. people leaving the
station don't look for the green arrow light to indicate that the gate is an
exit gate and instead try to touch-out on the inactive Oyster pad on the
wrong side of an entry gate is (or vice versa for people entering a station
and trying to use an inactive Oyster pad on an exit gate) - also people
walking through open gates before then remembering they need to touch-out,
but instead touching-in on Oyster pads on entry gates. Part of the problem
here can be that the lights on the gate's PED unit (? - it stands for
something that I can't recall off-hand) are sometimes rather faint.

Very good point.

I also got confused the first time I tried to for a journey from
Sydenham Hill to Bromley South.

Touched in on the readers by the Sydenham Hill station entrance on the
up platform, crossed the footbridge to the down platform, saw some
more readers, thought "Better touch on one of those too, so the system
knows which direction I'm going in and doesn't get confused by the
fact that I touched in on one platform and then caught a train from
the other one." Big mistake!

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Scott wrote:


To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

To be fair, the system doesn't exactly make things easy whenever it
fails to work.


There is also the facility to check journeys on the website and to
have 'errors' corrected.

Only if you're prepared to give your personal details to an
organisation that can already literally track your movements!
Actually I suspect that's the real reason the Oyster system is so
badly designed in the first place. It's to trick you into giving your
details to the website.

And if you think I'm being paranoid, ask yourself why TfL banned
newsagents from accepting credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-
ups. Think about it. I can't think of any reason for it except that
it means anyone wanting to use card payments for Oyster to either use
the website or the facilities at stations, so the authorities will be
able to link the specific credit/debit card holder with the specific
Oyster card...


I think you go too far in condemning a whole system because of one or
two difficulties. I will continue to use my Oyster card as a highly
convenient method of payment.

OK, but you're playing right into the hands of Scotland Yard or
whoever really controls TfL.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without? What about Overground and suburban rail,
where the Oyster pads are often quite hard to find. And what's the
distinction between pink and yellow pads? We know the answers, but can
a visitor find them easily?

If even we natives get caught out from time to time with an uncompleted
journey or two, is it surprising that visitors get caught out quite
often? And if you are just in London for a day or two, you really don't
want to spend hours on the phone or web to fix an unresolved journey on
your Oyster card.

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

--
Clive Page

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On Fri, 06 May 2011 11:31:12 +0100, Clive Page
wrote:

On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without? What about Overground and suburban rail,
where the Oyster pads are often quite hard to find. And what's the
distinction between pink and yellow pads? We know the answers, but can
a visitor find them easily?

If even we natives get caught out from time to time with an uncompleted
journey or two, is it surprising that visitors get caught out quite
often? And if you are just in London for a day or two, you really don't
want to spend hours on the phone or web to fix an unresolved journey on
your Oyster card.

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am not a foreign visitor (although after the election results that
may become the position soon !!!) and I concede I have made mistakes
on at least a couple of occasions. I still think the benefits far
outweigh the potential difficulties. I really like the convenience of
having the Oyster card and not needing to buy a ticket. If I lose out
on the odd occasion I am happy to treat it as a donation to TfL as I
support the concept of public transport.

I am less concerned than some about the privacy implications as I am
not sufficiently immodest to think that Scotland Yard will be spending
their time tracking my movements round London.

I'm actually campaigning for an Oyster type card for Scotland. (I say
Oyster type as I know it will be ITSO compliant instead). I know
there are practical difficulties about unresolved journeys. Will I
get charged a full single fare to Thurso is I omit to touch out? That
might alter my attitude!

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without?

And in this case - does it make a difference if the tram is one running in
Croydon or one running in Docklands?

(and the answer is a most confusing - YES it does)

tim

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 May 2011 11:31:12 +0100, Clive Page
wrote:

On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without? What about Overground and suburban rail,
where the Oyster pads are often quite hard to find. And what's the
distinction between pink and yellow pads? We know the answers, but can
a visitor find them easily?

If even we natives get caught out from time to time with an uncompleted
journey or two, is it surprising that visitors get caught out quite
often? And if you are just in London for a day or two, you really don't
want to spend hours on the phone or web to fix an unresolved journey on
your Oyster card.

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am not a foreign visitor (although after the election results that
may become the position soon !!!) and I concede I have made mistakes
on at least a couple of occasions. I still think the benefits far
outweigh the potential difficulties. I really like the convenience of
having the Oyster card and not needing to buy a ticket. If I lose out
on the odd occasion I am happy to treat it as a donation to TfL as I
support the concept of public transport.

Problem is the donation is going to be of the order of 15 pounds (twice the
new 7.80 default fare).

far too much a donation, IMHO

tim

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"solar penguin" wrote:

And if you think I'm being paranoid, ask yourself why TfL banned
newsagents from accepting credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-
ups. Think about it. I can't think of any reason for it except that
it means anyone wanting to use card payments for Oyster to either use
the website or the facilities at stations, so the authorities will be
able to link the specific credit/debit card holder with the specific
Oyster card...

But TfL *haven't* banned newsagents from accepting credit/debit card
payments for Oyster top-ups - it's up to the newsagents themselves to decide
on whether they want to offer that or not. It's worth bearing in mind the
cost to the shopkeeper of processing credit/debit card payments, which might
well wipe out the commission they get for selling Oyster top-ups, or at
least significantly reduce it to the point of it not being worth their
while. If customers are making a larger purchase, of which topping up their
Oyster is only part, then shopkeepers might well be more amenable to payment
by credit/debit card - though some will have it as an absolute rule.

(Is that acceptable, Big Brother? Good, I'll post it now...)

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 4 May, 18:05, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 4 May 2011 07:09:58 -0700 (PDT), George

wrote:
How much longer are people going to be ripped off like this? And
surely the London Tourist Board and similar organisations should be
telling visitors to London NOT to use Oyster and to buy a ODTC where
appropriate instead?

As ever George I assume that instead of moaning on here that you have
addressed your concerns to TfL and also to the London Tourist Board? *If
you haven't done so then you obviously don't think it is a particularly
serious matter.

PS - on an unrelated matter it was very nice of you to give me two new
nicknames in a recent posting about traffic in Purley on your "not
discredited" London-Transport Yahoo group. I have yet to finalise what I
"might not be able to do anything about" in response to my postings
being copied between groups.

You'd be surprised what I get to hear about. Have a nice day.

--
Paul C

Firstly Paul it is not my Yahoo Group it is Paul Morant that is the
owner.

Two new nicknames?? Some of your postings were being forwarded onto
the group from another group which I thought was a bit naughty!

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 4 May, 21:45, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 04 May 2011 21:31:52 +0100, Scott

wrote:
I think you go too far in condemning a whole system because of one or
two difficulties. *I will continue to use my Oyster card as a highly
convenient method of payment.

Go too far? George? surely not?

Some of us have read his comments over and over again in other places.
--
Paul C

I'm afraid that this is a bit more than one or two difficulties!

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"Scott" wrote in message
...

I'm actually campaigning for an Oyster type card for Scotland. (I say
Oyster type as I know it will be ITSO compliant instead). I know
there are practical difficulties about unresolved journeys. Will I
get charged a full single fare to Thurso is I omit to touch out? That
might alter my attitude!

Oyster style PAYG (with max cash fare deducted on touch in and rebate on
exit) over anything larger than a well defined urban area isn't really
possible - as you rightly point out.

Paul S

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On May 6, 11:31*am, Clive Page wrote:
[snip]

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. *And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. *In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am the exact opposite to you. As I will typically be making a lot of
use of public transport I will seek out the "ride at will" ticket or
smartcard version thereof. This saves me having multiple single trip
transactions right throughout a stay or worrying about finding cash
all the time. I'll do this even if I might make a financial loss
because I value the convenience of having "travel" in my pocket.

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Fortunately many systems do provide some English language info but
usually it is a subset of the info provided in the native language.
While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris. That was dealt with very quickly. I
had an Octopus Card fail in HK on my final day there and I was
refunded on the spot based on my estimate of the card balance. Some
systems have features that London does not have (e.g exit validation
on buses) but you learn to cope with those features. I didn't know
how to use my Suica on a tram in Tokyo but coped just fine; ditto on a
Tokyo bus. I even had a ticket machine revert to Japanese part way
through a top up transaction but "guessed" what to do and got the
money on the card fine.

Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

--
Paul C
via Google

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Mizter T wrote:
"solar penguin" wrote:

And if you think I'm being paranoid, ask yourself why TfL banned
newsagents from accepting credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-
ups.

But TfL *haven't* banned newsagents from accepting credit/debit card
payments for Oyster top-ups - it's up to the newsagents themselves to decide
on whether they want to offer that or not.

That's not what the newsagents themselves said. I've heard this at
two different shops, so it's not just one newsagent that's mistaken.

It's worth bearing in mind the
cost to the shopkeeper of processing credit/debit card payments, which might
well wipe out the commission they get for selling Oyster top-ups, or at
least significantly reduce it to the point of it not being worth their
while. If customers are making a larger purchase, of which topping up their
Oyster is only part, then shopkeepers might well be more amenable to payment
by credit/debit card - though some will have it as an absolute rule.

Just the opposite. One newsagent made me split my purchase, paying
for the Oyster by cash, and the other goods by debit card. He clearly
had no problem accepting debit cards in general, but insisted TfL
rules didn't allow him to accept them for Oyster.

So this raises the question of why TfL are letting newsagents believe
they're not allowed to accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster if
it's not he case?

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris.

Compare that with how often London's Oyster goes wrong, and it's
obvious that TfL must be doing something wrong somewhere.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"solar penguin" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

"solar penguin" wrote:

And if you think I'm being paranoid, ask yourself why TfL banned
newsagents from accepting credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-
ups.

But TfL *haven't* banned newsagents from accepting credit/debit card
payments for Oyster top-ups - it's up to the newsagents themselves to
decide
on whether they want to offer that or not.

That's not what the newsagents themselves said. I've heard this at
two different shops, so it's not just one newsagent that's mistaken.

It's worth bearing in mind the
cost to the shopkeeper of processing credit/debit card payments, which
might
well wipe out the commission they get for selling Oyster top-ups, or at
least significantly reduce it to the point of it not being worth their
while. If customers are making a larger purchase, of which topping up
their
Oyster is only part, then shopkeepers might well be more amenable to
payment
by credit/debit card - though some will have it as an absolute rule.

Just the opposite. One newsagent made me split my purchase, paying
for the Oyster by cash, and the other goods by debit card. He clearly
had no problem accepting debit cards in general, but insisted TfL
rules didn't allow him to accept them for Oyster.

So this raises the question of why TfL are letting newsagents believe
they're not allowed to accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster if
it's not he case?

Perhaps there's some issue w.r.t. the settlement of monies which makes
accepting credit/debit card payments more troublesome (e.g. TfL want the
money for Oyster card purchases before the retailer has got it from their
payment card processer).

FWIW this is what it says on the Oyster Ticket Stops section of the TfL
website:

---quote---
How to pay
Please check with individual retailer which types of payment are accepted.
---/quote---

Source:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14434.aspx

If Oyster Ticket Stops (OTS) weren't permitted to accept credit/debit card
payments for Oyster top-ups at all, then one wouldn't expect the above text
to appear. That's not to say that the local relationship manager or whatever
doesn't just say to OTS shopkeepers that accepting debit/credit cards is
more trouble than its worth (for whatever reason). One possibility is that
to accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-ups, OTS shopkeepers
have to pass a more rigourous credit test, and many/most don't bother with
that - in which case they'd be right in saying that TfL rules meant that
they couldn't accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"solar penguin" wrote in message
...

Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

Don't got to southern Sweden then!.

As of June you will no longer be able to pay your fare "on the bus". You
either buy a ticket from a station or pay with (their) Oyster equivalent (or
walk)

tim

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On Fri, 6 May 2011 15:13:03 +0100
"tim...." wrote:
As of June you will no longer be able to pay your fare "on the bus". You
either buy a ticket from a station or pay with (their) Oyster equivalent (or
walk)

Sounds like another place where the convenience of the operator is more
important than that of the paying passenger.

B2003

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On Fri, 6 May 2011 05:33:07 -0700 (PDT), Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English

They have information, including an Oyster PDF, in Polish, French,
Spanish, Italian, German, Turkish, Chinese, Arabic, Greek, Urdu, Tamil,
Bengali, Hindi, Gujarati and Punjabi.

There is a box on the front page.

David

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 May 2011 15:13:03 +0100
"tim...." wrote:
As of June you will no longer be able to pay your fare "on the bus". You
either buy a ticket from a station or pay with (their) Oyster equivalent
(or
walk)

Sounds like another place where the convenience of the operator is more
important than that of the paying passenger.

Seems to have been imposed upon them by the Swedish equivalent of H&SE :-(

(can't find out why)

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Mizter T wrote:


Perhaps there's some issue w.r.t. the settlement of monies which makes
accepting credit/debit card payments more troublesome (e.g. TfL want the
money for Oyster card purchases before the retailer has got it from their
payment card processer).

FWIW this is what it says on the Oyster Ticket Stops section of the TfL
website:

---quote---
How to pay
Please check with individual retailer which types of payment are accepted.
---/quote---

Source:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14434.aspx

If Oyster Ticket Stops (OTS) weren't permitted to accept credit/debit card
payments for Oyster top-ups at all, then one wouldn't expect the above text
to appear. That's not to say that the local relationship manager or whatever
doesn't just say to OTS shopkeepers that accepting debit/credit cards is
more trouble than its worth (for whatever reason). One possibility is that
to accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster top-ups, OTS shopkeepers
have to pass a more rigourous credit test, and many/most don't bother with
that - in which case they'd be right in saying that TfL rules meant that
they couldn't accept credit/debit card payments for Oyster.

OK, that does sound plausible. Thanks for that. I'll have to think
about it.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 06/05/2011 13:33, Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

I'm not sure what more TfL could do: the Oyster system is,
unfortunately, extremely complex when you consider all the possible ways
you can use it. And visitors are quite likely to use it (or try to)
when going to places like Greenwich or Windsor, in awkward combinations
of tubes and buses and national rail trains and maybe even trams, so
they run more than a tiny risk of encountering the rough edges of the
scheme.

And that's not to mention boats - I realised too late last time I took a
boat along the Thames that I could have done it more cheaply using my
Oyster card than by paying cash. I don't think that any of the Oyster
Card literature that I'd read told me that.

Regards

--
Clive Page

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On Fri, 6 May 2011 15:13:03 +0100, tim.... wrote:

Don't got to southern Sweden then!.

As of June you will no longer be able to pay your fare "on the bus". You
either buy a ticket from a station or pay with (their) Oyster equivalent (or
walk)

Or pay with your mobile.

--
jhk

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2011 22:13:59 +0100, Clive Page wrote:

On 06/05/2011 13:33, Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

I'm not sure what more TfL could do: the Oyster system is,
unfortunately, extremely complex when you consider all the possible ways
you can use it. And visitors are quite likely to use it (or try to)
when going to places like Greenwich or Windsor, in awkward combinations
of tubes and buses and national rail trains and maybe even trams, so
they run more than a tiny risk of encountering the rough edges of the
scheme.

Let's take a step back. At the most basic level Oyster is not that
complicated.

You buy a card, pay a deposit and add money or a Travelcard on it.
On rail journeys in the zonal area you must touch in and then touch out.
On a tram journey you touch in.
On a bus journey you touch in.

You can add more money at a LU station, at ticket machines at stations
across the zonal area and at shops with signs saying Oyster Ticket
Stops.

Oh and Oyster will add up your daily PAYG travel and will ensure you pay
the cheapest total fare.


It _should_ add up your daily PAYG travel and ensure you pay the
cheapest total fare. But it doesn't always do that in practice, does
it?

I've mentioned faulty pads that seem to read the card and open the
gate, but don't always write back to the card. There's one at Gipsy
Hill, one of my local stations, and it's caught me out a few times.
I've stopped using that particular gate whenever I'm on Oyster now,
but how's someone unfamiliar with the system supposed to know that?

How many other faulty pads are out there that we don't know about? If
the system doesn't even know where you've been, how's it going to work
out the right fare?


The above concepts are common to many smartcard systems elsewhere in the
world although few systems have as many validator only systems as
London. However they're more likely to be in the suburbs than in the
centre.

I tend to visit "off the beaten track" areas when I visit somewhere so I
might well fall across the apparent exceptions or complications in other
systems but I stress again - I haven't been caught out.

Are you talking about London or other places when you say you haven't
been caught out? If you mean London, then I just plain don't believe
you.


Now I accept that there are complications beyond what I have written
above but really how many tourists are going to fall across those
issues? How many tourists venture beyond zones 1 and 2? How many will
rove around the system breaking the maximum journey time rule or
tripping through OSIs? There may be a few but they will be very much
in the minority.

Is there still an OSI between the "entry" and "exit" barriers at
Oxford Circus? I got caught out by it last December, when I went to
collect some goods I'd ordered from John Lewis. Touched out, went to
the store, queued up, got my goods, touched in not knowing about the
OSI, and later found I had an unresolved journey.

I can see why TfL might think this OSI was a good idea for people who
got confused by the one-way layout of the station and were
accidentally channelled outside when they just wanted to change
trains. But I bet it catches out a lot of tourists doing Oxford
Circus.

But whether or not Oyster catches out tourists, it's still catching
out ordinary Londoners like us. That's the real problem.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message , at 22:08:46 on
Fri, 6 May 2011, Paul Corfield remarked:

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

Because this is a self-selected group of people who are interested in
researching fares.

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with
abroad just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work
out how to get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious
point-to-point service between the airport and their destination).

For example, there's a much under-used machine by the exit of Geneva's
baggage reclaim hall that dispenses a free public transport ticket.
There's a railway station (all the frequent trains stop at the city
centre) under the concourse, and buses and trolleybuses right outside.
Some people are being picked up, but loads head straight for the taxi
rank.
--
Roland Perry

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2011 06:13:21 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

No surveys to prove it. Do you have some surveys to disprove my point?
We can trade points like this all day if you'd like ;-)

_You're_ the one making the claim. It's _your_ claim so it's up to
_you_ to prove it, not up to me to disprove it.


I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

OK so some people are different. If people don't bother to the extent
that you are suggesting I do rather wonder why operators in all these
foreign places bother to put any helpful info on their websites in
English for visitors. Why not let them wallow in their ignorance and use
taxis rather than public transport during their visit?

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

I never said that no-one ever does research. I'm just questioning
your claim that "most people" do it.

While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris.

Compare that with how often London's Oyster goes wrong, and it's
obvious that TfL must be doing something wrong somewhere.

So you're prepared to accept my single example based on a few trips as
some sort of proof that TfL's system is broken.

At least that _is_ a real example based on real trips, not something
you've just made up with no evidence at all.

Even a little evidence is still better than none.

There may be all sorts
of problems going on with these other systems that I have never fallen
across.

But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. That's the difference.

You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none. Obviously that doesn't apply in the topsy-turvy world of
Oyster...

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message
,
solar penguin wrote:
But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. That's the difference.

I spent a week in London just before Easter. 15 Underground train
journeys (i.e. more than "a few"), 3 buses, all on Oyster. Zero
problems.

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.

You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none.

"The singular of 'data' is not 'anecdote'."

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

solar penguin wrote:

You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none. Obviously that doesn't apply in the topsy-turvy world of
Oyster...


I'm sorry, I shouldn't've said that. It was a silly, cheap shot.
Instead I'll try and explain things properly.

You look up transport fares in advance. Yes, that is a sample of one,
and you can't extrapolate from it to claim that "most people" do
this. The most you can conclude is that it is _possible_ for people
to look up transport fares in advance.

You've used other PAYG systems with fewer problems than Oyster.
Again, I can't use that sample of one to claim that "most people" have
used other PAYG systems with fewer problems than Oyster. But that's
OK because I'm not interested in claiming that. I can, however, use
it to conclude that it's _possible_ to have PAYG systems with fewer
problems than Oyster. And if it's possible then why isn't TfL doing
it?

See the difference? Claiming that something's possible is different
from claiming that "most people" actually do it, so they require
different kinds of evidence.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In message
,
solar penguin wrote:

But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. That's the difference.

I spent a week in London just before Easter. 15 Underground train
journeys (i.e. more than "a few"), 3 buses, all on Oyster. Zero
problems.

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.


Interesting. How do you manage it? What's the secret?

I notice you did an awful lot of Underground journeys (more in one
week than I've done in two months) but no normal trains, and hardly
any buses. Could that have something to do with it?

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message , at 08:48:13 on Sat, 7
May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.

I've had self-inflicted problems (forgetting to touch-out at a DLR
station because the pads were hidden away and didn't provide a ready
reminder).

But also system-inflicted problems (a mystery overcharge which they
confessed to, but was quite some trouble to pick up[1] due to the "you
must nominate somewhere specific to do it" syndrome).

I also had problems when trying to set up auto-topup because my travel
plans changed and I didn't use the "somewhere nominated" station after
all. So had to re-specify a place and try again on a later trip.

A later administrative pickup failed because they didn't say at the
beginning of the request process that the instruction would time out
after a week. (And I wasn't going to be there for about a month).

I've also got a Barclaycard OnePulse, and "someone" registered it online
(with a userid clearly associated with me, but which I would never have
picked, and a password I obviously never supplied) and failed to tell me
they'd done it, or supply login details. It took a half hour call to the
helpline to sort that out.

My annual Oyster usage is about £30, and I've had one since they were
first introduced (and the OnePulse since first issued). So a regular but
infrequent customer. And given the level of my usage, quite a high
percentage of faffing about.

I'm prepared to accept that daily users will get more accustomed to the
way it works, and suffer fewer problems as a result. But tourists are
likely to be unfamiliar users, if we are suggesting they try Oyster.

[1] I foolishly chose "St Pancras", which turns out to be the FCC SPILL
gateline, not the tube station.
--
Roland Perry

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message
, at
00:52:28 on Sat, 7 May 2011, solar penguin
remarked:
You look up transport fares in advance. Yes, that is a sample of one,
and you can't extrapolate from it to claim that "most people" do
this. The most you can conclude is that it is _possible_ for people
to look up transport fares in advance.

But even if you do, it can be difficult to take in all the wrinkles.

I've visited Brussels more times than I can recall, and always buy
"Jump" tickets for the metro. I've looked at the website quite a few
times as well. And only last year did I realise you can use those
tickets on the Belgium 'National Rail' services within the city, as well
as the metro etc.

Indeed, if you look at this page: http://www.brussels.info/transport/
while it says the ticket is valid on all "inner city transport", it goes
on to say [only] that the ticket's valid on "bus, metro or tram or a
combination". The paragraph on buses says the ticket can be used on
"metro and trams as well". (No mention of trains).

And the statement that "public transport is made up of metro lines,
train lines, buses and trams" doesn't unambiguously include trains in
the jump ticket, and the final paragraph about trains only talks about
inter-city ticketing.

In fact, now I've typed all that, I could be excused if having doubts it
really does include inner-city trains!

But buried elsewhere is:

"[allows] journeys on the entire public transport network of STIB trams,
busses, trains and the underground until the end of service (except for
the NATO-Brussels Airport section of lines 12 and 21). It is also valid
on the networks of DE LIJN and TEC and SNCB in Brussels."

And that's a site with a very good English-language rendition of its
rules. I never did find anything as useful for Lisbon, so reluctantly
used taxis instead.
--
Roland Perry

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 7 May 2011 00:52:28 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
wrote:


I'm sorry, I shouldn't've said that. It was a silly, cheap shot.

Yes it was, wasn't it as were several of your other remarks. I'm not
responding any more to you in this thread.


OK, that's your choice.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

On 7 May, 08:48, "Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:
In message
,

solar penguin wrote:
But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. *It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. *That's the difference.

I spent a week in London just before Easter. 15 Underground train
journeys (i.e. more than "a few"), 3 buses, all on Oyster. Zero
problems.

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.

* You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! * It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. *You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none.

"The singular of 'data' is not 'anecdote'."

--
Clive D.W. Feather * * * * * * * * *| Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 * * * * * * | Web: *http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:


I'm not being funny Clive but do you and your family check your
balance regularly? Many people don't even realise they've been
overcharged.

It's happened to me so many times (on trains and tube) that I now only
use PAYG Oyster for bus and tram travel (where a simple flat fare is
deducted), for rail travel I use paper tickets, normally a ODTC. I
also know many other people who've been similarly overcharged as well,
indeed there was an article about it in the Evening Standard recently.

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 22:08:46 on
Fri, 6 May 2011, Paul Corfield remarked:

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

Because this is a self-selected group of people who are interested in
researching fares.

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with abroad
just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work out how to
get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious point-to-point
service between the airport and their destination).

Are these people that you travel with spending OPM

tim

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 May 2011 22:13:59 +0100, Clive Page wrote:

On 06/05/2011 13:33, Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

I'm not sure what more TfL could do: the Oyster system is,
unfortunately, extremely complex when you consider all the possible ways
you can use it. And visitors are quite likely to use it (or try to)
when going to places like Greenwich or Windsor, in awkward combinations
of tubes and buses and national rail trains and maybe even trams, so
they run more than a tiny risk of encountering the rough edges of the
scheme.

Let's take a step back. At the most basic level Oyster is not that
complicated.

You buy a card, pay a deposit and add money or a Travelcard on it.
On rail journeys in the zonal area you must touch in and then touch out.
On a tram journey you touch in.

Unless that tram's a docklands tram where you have to touch out!

On a bus journey you touch in.

You can add more money at a LU station, at ticket machines at stations
across the zonal area and at shops with signs saying Oyster Ticket
Stops.

Oh and Oyster will add up your daily PAYG travel and will ensure you pay
the cheapest total fare.


The above concepts are common to many smartcard systems elsewhere in the
world

Perhaps I'm not as travelled as you, but none of the similar systems that I
have used ever require you to touch out.

They either have a completely flat fare system (with or without "free"
transfers) or they require you to specify (by some mechanism) your exit zone
when you touch in, and rely upon honesty (and random on board checks) to do
it right.

It is "unresolved journeys" that cause most Oyster **** ups and is something
that no other system I have used can ever suffer from.

tim

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message , at 11:53:49 on Sat, 7 May
2011, tim.... remarked:

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with abroad
just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work out how to
get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious point-to-point
service between the airport and their destination).

Are these people that you travel with spending OPM

It varies. Not very many will be employed in the private sector, there
being a skew towards not-for-profit, academia and public sector. Of
course, the ones who have paid for a longhaul air flight themselves, and
then go on to stay in a typically $200 a night hotel, may not be to
worried about the odd $50 taxi fare.

There's also the "safety" aspect, where when visiting some countries
it's probably not a good idea to wander round the streets looking lost.
But I don't think many European (or even north American) cities come
into that category. The trick is, not having a "one size fits all"
travel policy.
--
Roland Perry

The PAYG Oystercard rip off
 

In message , at 12:03:03 on Sat, 7 May
2011, tim.... remarked:
Perhaps I'm not as travelled as you, but none of the similar systems that I
have used ever require you to touch out.

You have to touch out of an Amsterdam tram (the fares are zonal).

"Always check in and check out

Travel with the OV-chipkaart means that you must always check in
and check out at the gates or the yellow card readers."

http://www.gvb.nl/english/travellers.../ov-chipkaart-
travel-products/Pages/rules.aspx

It is "unresolved journeys" that cause most Oyster **** ups and is
something that no other system I have used can ever suffer from.

"Not checked in or out? That means there is an incomplete
transaction on your card. Your card will be disabled if there
are twelve incomplete transactions on your card in two weeks.
You must then get the card restored at one of our Tickets & Info
service points."

I wonder if the Singapore system is the same (another of the Oyster-
alikes).
--
Roland Perry