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Remaining bendy buses
The 25 has been debendified as of today and doubledeckers are running its
length. How many routes still have these monsters on them? |
Remaining bendy buses
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:37:57 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: The 25 has been debendified as of today and doubledeckers are running its length. How many routes still have these monsters on them? 12 - converts November 29 / N29 - converts by year end but no firm date 73 - converts September 207 - converts by year end but no firm date 453 - converts November 436 - converts November All dates refer to 2011 as I believe Boris has decreed they must be gone by the end of the year. This clears the deck in terms of one Mayoral commitment before the Borismaster (another commitment) emerges to much undoubted fanfare early in 2012. I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. I'm sure I'm in a minority though. -- Paul C Not sure if any are being binned, but some of them are being used by Brighton & Hove buses. -- DAS |
Remaining bendy buses
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Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. I'm sure I'm in a minority though. ISTR reading that it's about the most prominent policy from his Mayoralty that Livingstone has so far *not* pledged to bring back. Presuambly he regards it as a vote loser as well. Of course being a vote losing policy will probably mean Lembit's interested... |
Remaining bendy buses
In article ,
D A Stocks wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. I'm sure I'm in a minority though. -- Paul C Not sure if any are being binned, but some of them are being used by Brighton & Hove buses. If I still lived in a place that used second hand LT buses, I'd be quite glad of some nearly new kit ! Well done Bozza ;-) Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
Remaining bendy buses
In message , at 23:30:51 on
Sat, 25 Jun 2011, Paul Corfield remarked: I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. The operators will move them to a different city, won't they? -- Roland Perry |
Remaining bendy buses
In message , at 17:37:04
on Sat, 25 Jun 2011, remarked: I noticed some ex-TfL bendies in use in Leicester on Friday on route 80, between various Leicester Uni locations. They were painted bright green! Makes sense; the Nottingham and Bath Uni-Link routes are already both operated by bendy-buses. -- Roland Perry |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 17:37:04 -0500,
wrote: I noticed some ex-TfL bendies in use in Leicester on Friday on route 80, between various Leicester Uni locations. They were painted bright green! Perhaps some should be considered for the Oxford Road services in Manchester? Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:30:51 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:37:57 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: The 25 has been debendified as of today and doubledeckers are running its length. How many routes still have these monsters on them? 12 - converts November 29 / N29 - converts by year end but no firm date 73 - converts September 207 - converts by year end but no firm date 453 - converts November 436 - converts November All dates refer to 2011 as I believe Boris has decreed they must be gone by the end of the year. This clears the deck in terms of one Mayoral commitment before the Borismaster (another commitment) emerges to much undoubted fanfare early in 2012. I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. I'm sure I'm in a minority though. I suspect that they will be recycled. Swansea has had a number of second-hand bendy buses imposed upon it - no idea where they came from. thjey all have personalised number plates to hide the fact from the morons in the council that they are rejects. They were initially planned torun as far as Mumbles, but then it was discovered that it was impossible for them to turn around to make the return journey! -- Cheers Peter (Reply to address is a spam trap - pse reply to the group) |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:01:50 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: the X26 from Kingston to Heathrow. That route fills up well but is not suited to double deckers as people cannot lug their luggage upstairs. The bendies could easily have luggage stacks put in them and you could lose a door to provide more seats. Perhaps APCOA should buy some for the Luton Airport car park shuttles which are often overloaded or full. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
Roland Perry writes:
In message , at 23:30:51 on Sat, 25 Jun 2011, Paul Corfield remarked: I still think it's a monstrous waste of resources to be binning the bendy buses when they still have another 10-15 years life in them. The operators will move them to a different city, won't they? Unfortunatly they have. I came across one in Leicester, causing chaos as it is too long to turn right from the right turn lane and was therefore blocking traffic going straight on. Victoria Park Road to Queens Road. They are totally unsuitable for British cities. Couldn't they just have had the back cut of and a new back welded onto the bus part. Phil |
Remaining bendy buses
In message , at 11:01:50 on
Sun, 26 Jun 2011, Paul Corfield remarked: The operators will move them to a different city, won't they? They've not managed it so far. A few went on to Olympic site worker shuttles, some have gone to Brighton, Bournemouth and Leicester. Arriva have moved a fair number to Malta for their big network scheme. That's interesting - I was reading an article the other day about Arriva talking over from the colourful owner-drivers on the island. An example of a route where they could be used is the X26 from Kingston to Heathrow. That route fills up well but is not suited to double deckers as people cannot lug their luggage upstairs. In other news... I saw a (P&R[1]) double decker being used on the Nottingham to East Midlands airport SKYLINK service the other week. Not sure if that was a deliberate attempt to increase capacity, or whether it was an emergency substitution. The destination boards had it programmed in though. [1] Which have quite a bit of luggage/standing space downstairs. -- Roland Perry |
Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
The reality is that very expensive assets are being chucked on the scrap heap as a result of a political whim turned into a policy. Even more (in terms of quantity) replacement assets are being bought new to replace them prematurely. It is as if we had shuttled back to the 1970s and were reliving the worst aspects of LT's vehicle policies from that time. One might have hoped that that particular lesson from history had been learnt by now. I suspect that such politicking will continue for a good unless a consensus develops across the main parties that agrees these things better before the assets are ordered in the first place. I have no memory of whether the initial bendy orders were supported by the Conservatives at the time (or which particular Conservatives - a serious problem with the GLA set-up is that Mayors aren't necessarily going to come from within and a party's Assembly group's agreement will be less binding on candidates than a parliamentary one) but I do wonder if Livingstone would have so readily agreed them if he'd realised what a controversy they would be or that he could face defeat in an election (and in 2005/6/7 a lot of people outside Labour took his re-election for granted). Then again Livingstone is one of the least likely politicians to go in for such agreements. It's perfectly clear that a fair proportion of people do not like going upstairs on double decks so more seats on a single deck offers a sensible compromise. Is the design workable for that? On the bendies at the moment the crush is in the door areas and people generally don't try to move down into the seating aisles because they lack confidence they can get out in time. The (usually) one way doors on double deckers do at least encourage movement in that direction. |
Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
They are totally unsuitable for British cities. Couldn't they just have had the back cut of and a new back welded onto the bus part. No they are not - people seem to conveniently forget that bendy buses have operated for years and years in Glasgow, Aberdeen, Bath, Gateshead, Leeds, York, Coventry and Birmingham with barely a squeak of complaint about them. These buses run on a wide variety of services on streets of varying dimensions and they are not subject to the sort of irrational and daft vilification that has surrounded their use in London. Of all those cities I can only recall using bendies in York - and there they seemed to run on fairly wide roads, not narrow twisting ones. Do those cities allow boarding at all doors or just the front? The "free bus" aspect has been one of the things people hate about them the most and, whether rightly or wrongly, they believe one of the reasons for crushcrowding is the limited disincentive for free riding. Also do the buses generally serve short hops in the urban areas where standing is more tolerated for a brief period or long suburban journeys where seats are more desired? If people wish to complain about long and cumbersome vehicles why is there not a vocal campaign about huge tri-axle coaches and buses that are deployed on routes like the Oxford Tube, Megabus and various sightseeing operations? The answer is that a Mayor (or Mayoral candidate) has not put them in their sights so far as political campaigning is concerned even though they are almost as long as less manouevrable than their bendy counterparts. There were attacks on the buses before Bojo's campaign. Part of it is down to London exceptionalism, especially as the bendies coincided with the phasing out of the Routemaster, but also the buses were never terribly well sold to portions of the public who have to use them. |
Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
They are totally unsuitable for British cities. Couldn't they just have had the back cut of and a new back welded onto the bus part. No they are not - people seem to conveniently forget that bendy buses have operated for years and years in Glasgow, Aberdeen, Bath, Gateshead, Leeds, York, Coventry and Birmingham with barely a squeak of complaint about them. These buses run on a wide variety of services on streets of varying dimensions and they are not subject to the sort of irrational and daft vilification that has surrounded their use in London. Of all those cities I can only recall using bendies in York - and there they seemed to run on fairly wide roads, not narrow twisting ones. Do those cities allow boarding at all doors or just the front? The "free bus" aspect has been one of the things people hate about them the most and, whether rightly or wrongly, they believe one of the reasons for crushcrowding is the limited disincentive for free riding. Also do the buses generally serve short hops in the urban areas where standing is more tolerated for a brief period or long suburban journeys where seats are more desired? If people wish to complain about long and cumbersome vehicles why is there not a vocal campaign about huge tri-axle coaches and buses that are deployed on routes like the Oxford Tube, Megabus and various sightseeing operations? The answer is that a Mayor (or Mayoral candidate) has not put them in their sights so far as political campaigning is concerned even though they are almost as long as less manouevrable than their bendy counterparts. There were attacks on the buses before Bojo's campaign. Part of it is down to London exceptionalism, especially as the bendies coincided with the phasing out of the Routemaster, but also the buses were never terribly well sold to portions of the public who have to use them. |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:05:03 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: seating aisles because they lack confidence they can get out in time. The (usually) one way doors on double deckers do at least encourage movement in that direction. Nothing says you can't operate bendies that way. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:49:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: Do those cities allow boarding at all doors or just the front? Just the front. Maybe the issue is to some extent operational, then. In some places, e.g.parts of Germany and Switzerland, all buses are like that. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
On 2011\06\26 11:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
Other examples are the 227, 203, 232, 285 and 358 - all busy and constrained to single deck operation IIRC. I believe the 232 has often used double deckers, and route 285 contains no low bridges that I can find. Not sure about the others. |
Remaining bendy buses
On 2011\06\26 08:42, Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 17:37:04 -0500, wrote: I noticed some ex-TfL bendies in use in Leicester on Friday on route 80, between various Leicester Uni locations. They were painted bright green! Perhaps some should be considered for the Oxford Road services in Manchester? Major student area with lots of cyclists. |
Remaining bendy buses
On 2011\06\26 10:30, Peter wrote:
I suspect that they will be recycled. Swansea has had a number of second-hand bendy buses imposed upon it - no idea where they came from. thjey all have personalised number plates to hide the fact from the morons in the council that they are rejects. They were initially planned torun as far as Mumbles, but then it was discovered that it was impossible for them to turn around to make the return journey! Then I'd call that a proposal rather than a plan. |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:32:43 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote: Major student area with lots of cyclists. But generally wide enough for cycle lanes. And even so, I don't see the cyclist-bendybus issue, so long as the cyclists are not acting dangerously e.g. undertaking. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
On 26/06/2011 11:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
the X26 from Kingston to Heathrow. ?? I hope you don't know something I don't, IYSWIM. Still, it wouldn't surprise me after... FWIW, I saw an X26 full and standing at Croydon a couple of hours ago. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
These are all entirely admirable policy objectives provided you don't get upset about vehicle types either being introduced or abolished. It's not dissimilar to the sorts of nimby arguments you get about tram systems particularly during the construction phase. Everyone is happy once the things are built and running because they've got a swish new transport system on their doorstep. Trams are rather more permanent though whereas buses can be replaced. And a lot of people were not happy with the bendies once introduced and ongoing - whether passengers or other road users who had to navigate the obstacles. When campaigning for Boris & the local Assembly candidate in 2007/8 along a good chunk of the 25's route we found the policy going down very well on the doorstep or for that matter at bus stops. I don't think the Conservatives would have needed to have a view on bendy buses - they were simply the result of the elected Mayor's policies and enacted via the tendering regime which is not subject to Assembly votes or sanction. I agree it's not necessary but if there's the risk that a future elected Mayor is going to reverse the current policy then it's not terribly stable for long term planning. Conversely it's not good for democracy if unpopular & bad decisions can be locked into place for years after the decision maker has been thrown out. Consensus seeking is usually the best way to marry the two demands and avoid expensive turnovers, but it requires people to seek those consensuses. I think there are far more important issues for any Mayoral candidate to be pronouncing on True but this issue especially resonated because it's an issue people can actually see and have a very clear idea what difference a vote for the candidate will mean in a way that even pledges on more money for public services doesn't. but I think the issue put Ken on the back foot. He also (IMO) fought a poor and tired campaign in 2008 and had to deal with unprecedented vitriol from the Evening Standard. Livingstone had never really had hard competition before and I got the impression that both his camp and a lot of the London Labour Party had come to regard London as theirs to govern by divine right, with elections a formality to rubber stamp. (The reaction of many Labour activists when Livingstone lost said it all.) And with such arrogance often comes over things, which the Standard picked up on and ran with. I don't think they took the prospect of defeat seriously until it was too late. |
Remaining bendy buses
"Neil Williams" wrote: On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:32:43 +0100, Basil Jet wrote: Major student area with lots of cyclists. But generally wide enough for cycle lanes. And even so, I don't see the cyclist-bendybus issue, so long as the cyclists are not acting dangerously e.g. undertaking. As a cyclist, I don't have an issue with bendy buses. Bus drivers in London are generally pretty good and aware w.r.t. cyclists (though some cyclists do seem somewhat oblivious to the dynamics of buses moving around the road space, but the same applies to other road vehicles, particularly large ones). |
Remaining bendy buses
In message , at 23:48:10 on Sun, 26 Jun
2011, Tim Roll-Pickering remarked: Trams are rather more permanent though whereas buses can be replaced. And trams show a greater commitment, which may well be reflected in people's longer term transport decisions. I'm thinking of exercises like the futuristic "tram-alike" bendy bus that was put onto the Luton Airport station shuttle (mainly it seemed to justify the beginning of charging for what was previously a free service). Within a year it had been replaced by an ordinary bus. The Cambridge Guided Bus was also "sold" on the basis of having a similar trendy looking bendy bus in the fliers - but once it was approved the promoters backpedalled and said that they never intended to imply it would have anything other than normal buses. Yeah, right. ToCs do it too: the posters for the Luton Airport Parkway P&R facility depicted a futuristic train, when all they had was a fleet of decrepit Thameslink trains. Stansted Express tarted up the look of the trains on their literature too. -- Roland Perry |
Remaining bendy buses
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Remaining bendy buses
On 25 June, 21:37, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: The 25 has been debendified as of today and doubledeckers are running its length. How many routes still have these monsters on them? Routes 12,29,73,207,436 and 453. |
Remaining bendy buses
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:48:43 -0500
wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: The Cambridge Guided Bus was also "sold" on the basis of having a similar trendy looking bendy bus in the fliers - but once it was approved the promoters backpedalled and said that they never intended to imply it would have anything other than normal buses. Yeah, right. To be fair, that was a change of promoters. Cambridgeshire County Council have never sold the scheme on the basis of bendy buses. It's still being sold as superior, though, through leather seats and wifi. Lets see how well those leather seats survive chavs being sick on them on a saturday night and schoolkids stabbing them with pencils. B2003 |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:49:49 +0100
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: There were attacks on the buses before Bojo's campaign. Part of it is down to London exceptionalism, especially as the bendies coincided with the phasing out of the Routemaster, but also the buses were never terribly well sold to portions of the public who have to use them. Why do you need to "sell" a bus? People will know if they like it as soon as they use it. And frankly anything is better than a routemaster. Once you wade past all the olde worlde tea and cakes watching a village cricket match with a spitfire flying overhead nostaligia crap you realise what a truly and utterly dreadful bus they were. Cramped, slow, noisy, jerky and hot without a single redeaming feature other than an open platform you could jump on and off if it was going slow enough. Useful for traffic jams in central london, a joke for anywhere else. B2003 |
Remaining bendy buses
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Remaining bendy buses
In message , at 11:08:57 on
Mon, 27 Jun 2011, Paul Corfield remarked: It's still being sold as superior, though, through leather seats and wifi. Lets see how well those leather seats survive chavs being sick on them on a saturday night and schoolkids stabbing them with pencils. Given the buses have been in service for months and months I suspect they're holding up very well. Stagecoach have used the same vehicle types in various places across the country with the same level of finish / facilites. There's nothing wrong with "leather seats" as such, but you need more than that to transform a service. -- Roland Perry |
Remaining bendy buses
Paul Corfield wrote:
When campaigning for Boris & the local Assembly candidate in 2007/8 along a good chunk of the 25's route we found the policy going down very well on the doorstep or for that matter at bus stops. Well I trust you're looking forward to an electoral bounce next year in those well known Conservative areas like Manor Park, Bow, Mile End and Whitechapel ;-) I'd very much like to look forward to it (and also in Stratford and Forest Gate ;) ) but on a more serious point very few people cast & change their vote on the basis of one single policy, even if they do agree with it. People tend to vote more on perceptions of right priorities, competence, honesty and so forth, which the policies feed into. It's rare for a single issue to be such a vote switcher. Livingstone had never really had hard competition before and I got the impression that both his camp and a lot of the London Labour Party had come to regard London as theirs to govern by divine right, with elections a formality to rubber stamp. (The reaction of many Labour activists when Livingstone lost said it all.) And with such arrogance often comes over things, which the Standard picked up on and ran with. I don't think they took the prospect of defeat seriously until it was too late. An interesting view. A quick check of history would have shown that the leadership of the LCC and GLC switched between parties so it was entirely plausible that the Mayoralty would too. I can't imagine that Ken is not steeped in London's political history so he must have known there was a risk of him losing. Still I am not familiar with the machinations of political parties so I am probably talking cobblers The LCC switched parties just twice in its 76 year history (Progressives lost to Municipal Reform in 1907 who in turn lost to Labour in 1934). The GLC was more volatile, switch control at four out of six elections (1967, 1973, 1977, 1981) and was *always* won by the party in Opposition nationally. (For those wondering, the Inner London Education Authority - comprised 1965-1986 of the GLC members for the old LCC area, bar North Woolwich, and then directly elected 1986-1990, was Conservative controlled in 1967-1970 but otherwise Labour held throughout its existence. ILEA was abolished from 1990 with education passing to the boroughs.) However London has changed a lot since 1981 and there has been a noticeable leftwards shift. What were once regular electoral bellweathers have steadily shifted into safe territory with changes in both demographics and the relationship between demographics and voting. In the last general election the Conservatives had their weakest swing outside Scotland (and I think Northern Ireland but the UCUNF arrangement confuses things) in London and of the six southern & Midlands regions it was their weakest by some margin. Current London opinion polls show the Conservatives trailing Boris by some distance. The result overall is that London increasingly feels a naturally left leaning city, even if the Conservatives are still able to win some seats, and when coupled with a seemingly always popular incumbent it seemed that the Mayoralty was going to be Labour in all but exceptional circumstances (e.g. the nomination f-up of 2000). |
Remaining bendy buses
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:32:15 +0100
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: People tend to vote more on perceptions of right priorities, competence, honesty and so forth, which the policies feed into. It's rare for a single Yeah , right. People - if they even think when they vote and don't just vote for the party they've always voted for or their parents voted for - usually just vote for the party they think will benefit them the most , not the country as a whole. distance. The result overall is that London increasingly feels a naturally left leaning city, even if the Conservatives are still able to win some Depends what you mean by london. If you just mean the inner city chavvy dole scroungers and immigrant infested scumbag areas or the right-on muesli munching camden and hampstead areas then yes. If you mean the outer suburbs then mostly no. B2003 |
Remaining bendy buses
In message , Roland Perry
writes There's nothing wrong with "leather seats" as such I expect they'll help to keep vegetarians at bay. -- Paul Terry |
Remaining bendy buses
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Remaining bendy buses
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Remaining bendy buses
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 14:42:58 +0100
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: wrote: Why do you need to "sell" a bus? People will know if they like it as soon as they use it. Yes and in the case of the bendy there was a lot of dislike. But you need to I'm not so sure. I think there was a small very vocal minority who couldn't stand them and made damn sure everyone knew it , but the vast majority of users were more than happy with them. I used them intermittently for a while and I found them a pleasure to use. Far nicer than having to crawl up the staircase in a double decker and hang on for dear life while the driver floors it and then when I get to the top deck its more like a greenhouse than a method of transport. And thats without the obligatory yoofs hanging around on the back seat. B2003 |
Remaining bendy buses
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 02:48:43 on Mon, 27 Jun 2011, remarked: The Cambridge Guided Bus was also "sold" on the basis of having a similar trendy looking bendy bus in the fliers - but once it was approved the promoters backpedalled and said that they never intended to imply it would have anything other than normal buses. Yeah, right. To be fair, that was a change of promoters. Cambridgeshire County Council have never sold the scheme on the basis of bendy buses. So who was it produced the documents in question. Weren't they circulated around the time of the infamous "would you like high quality transport" questionnaire? I have to admit I've forgotten who they were. I know it wasn't the County Council because those other people upset my constituents big time by proposing various road alterations close to Drummer Street that the County knew nothing about. They've been anti-guided bus ever since, even though it will barely affect them if at all. The County denied all knowledge of the original promoters with bendies and started their own proposals some time later. It's still being sold as superior, though, through leather seats and wifi. People would probably prefer a more frequent service, especially off-peak. YMTTBICPC -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Remaining bendy buses
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 19:21:29 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote: On 2011\06\26 10:30, Peter wrote: I suspect that they will be recycled. Swansea has had a number of second-hand bendy buses imposed upon it - no idea where they came from. thjey all have personalised number plates to hide the fact from the morons in the council that they are rejects. They were initially planned torun as far as Mumbles, but then it was discovered that it was impossible for them to turn around to make the return journey! Then I'd call that a proposal rather than a plan. No, it was a plan - the council wanted something to replace the Mumbles Railway and came up with a bendybus route to the village. However, due to the incompetence of both the councillors and the traffic planners. We are talking about a council who designated one of the busiest streets in Swansea as a pedestrian area - excellent - except for the double decker buses that were permitted to share it. -- Cheers Peter (Reply to address is a spam trap - pse reply to the group) |
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