"Kat" wrote in message
...
In message , Richard Adamfi
writes
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:47:28 +0000, Kat
wrote:


But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system.
CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey
you are making.
A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper
extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare.

I think the argument here is that you would always keep a Pre Pay
balance, just in case you had to validate.

And if you never intend to add Pre Pay to your Oyster, always make sure
you buy an extension.
From what I've gathered, the £10.00 Penalty Fare is going to be very
strictly enforced now.

So as long as I have pre-pay on my Oystercard (zones 2 & 3 only), I don't
need to buy an extension ticket when I travel into Zone 1 - it should take
it £1.60 extra off my pre-pay?

Adrian

In message , Adrian
writes

So as long as I have pre-pay on my Oystercard (zones 2 & 3 only), I don't
need to buy an extension ticket when I travel into Zone 1 - it should take
it £1.60 extra off my pre-pay?

That's correct.
But if you go out of zone 2 - 3 and have no Pre Pay, you won't be able
to use your Oyster in your valid zones until the debit has been repaid.

BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of
course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to
the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office
Machine)

I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters.
The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out
of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't
believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise
it.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:25:49 +0000, Kat
wrote:



BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of
course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to
the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office
Machine)

I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters.
The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out
of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't
believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise
it.

That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week:
so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly
as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster
at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the
out-of-zone station. I had in mind to use pre-pay for this
eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet.

The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the
season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an
extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra
zone...

If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need
to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury
Park, which *is* covered by my season

Martin

In message , Martin Rich
writes
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:25:49 +0000, Kat
wrote:



BTW, people who are still buying magnetic extension tickets (which of
course don't register on the Oyster) need to take ticket and Oyster to
the ticket window to have it sorted out on the TOM (Ticket Office
Machine)

I advise people to keep some Pre Pay on their period ticket Oysters.
The number of times people have told me that they haven't travelled out
of zone until I read them their travel history is surprising. I don't
believe they're trying to pull a fast one; most genuinely don't realise
it.

That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week:
so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly
as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster
at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the
out-of-zone station.

Have you actually done this yet or was that in the days before Pre Pay
was enabled? It won't work now because an extension ticket cannot open
the gate for you and your Oyster will be recording an unresolved
journey. You should be using Pre Pay now.

I had in mind to use pre-pay for this
eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet.

When the extension fare is taken from your Pre Pay, it will be at the
2003 price and not the new price, so it's worth doing sooner than later
(apart from the trouble at the gate of having your Oyster read and then
maybe having to queue to get the thing sorted out.)

The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the
season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an
extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra
zone...

2 - 6 Annual ticket is £956.00
1 - 6 Annual ticket is £1068.00

The difference would buy you 70x Zone 1 extension tickets. If you are,
for example, going into and out of Zone 1 once a week, that's 35 x 2
uses so it would be sensible to include Zone 1 on your annual card.

If your season ticket has two zones not including Zone 1 and you go to
another zone, NOT Zone 1 then Pre pay would be cheaper.
(She said, hoping she got the arithmetic right)

You need to sit down with a Fares and Tickets booklet and work out
what's best for you...



If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need
to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury
Park, which *is* covered by my season

No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's
essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your
journey.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:39:20 +0000, Kat
wrote:

In message , Martin Rich
writes

That's interesting. At present I go out of zone around once a week:
so far I've just bought paper extension tickets and used them exactly
as I would have done with a magnetic season ticket: I touch the Oyster
at the in-zone station, and put the extension in the gate at the
out-of-zone station.

Have you actually done this yet or was that in the days before Pre Pay
was enabled? It won't work now because an extension ticket cannot open
the gate for you and your Oyster will be recording an unresolved
journey. You should be using Pre Pay now.


You're right, of course. I haven't (yet) done this since pre-pay
started.

I had in mind to use pre-pay for this
eventually, but wasn't planning to change over yet.

When the extension fare is taken from your Pre Pay, it will be at the
2003 price and not the new price, so it's worth doing sooner than later
(apart from the trouble at the gate of having your Oyster read and then
maybe having to queue to get the thing sorted out.)

Fair point


The really nice thing would be if Oyster could calculate, when the
season expires, whether it would have been cheaper simply to buy an
extra zone for the season, and charge me the cost of that extra
zone...

2 - 6 Annual ticket is £956.00
1 - 6 Annual ticket is £1068.00

The difference would buy you 70x Zone 1 extension tickets. If you are,
for example, going into and out of Zone 1 once a week, that's 35 x 2
uses so it would be sensible to include Zone 1 on your annual card.

If your season ticket has two zones not including Zone 1 and you go to
another zone, NOT Zone 1 then Pre pay would be cheaper.
(She said, hoping she got the arithmetic right)

You need to sit down with a Fares and Tickets booklet and work out
what's best for you...


My card is for zone 1-2 and the regular out-of-zone journeys are into
zone 3. I used to have a zone1-3 card, until I did sit down with the
fares booklet and worked out that usually zone 1-2 + extensions when
necessary would be cheaper.

On 2003 prices and for an odd-period season (my current one is for a
bit over 3 months and started in late December) zone 1-2 plus
extensions is better value if I make 6 or fewer return underground
trips into zone 3 per month.



If I *do* have both a season and pre-pay on my card, will I then need
to touch my Oyster to one of the readers when I go through Finsbury
Park, which *is* covered by my season

No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's
essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your
journey.

So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5
journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The
posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the
readers there if you're on pre-pay.

That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a
paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record
looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a
zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or
I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the
station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from
Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce
where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system
is that clever). At the other end, if the paper extension won't open
the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The
extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what
type of Travelcard I have.

Sorry. I've rambled on for much too long about one obscure case.
Kat: thank you very much for responding to my previous post, and I do
appreciate what you and other LU insiders have brought to the various
Oyster threads

Martin

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:50:24 +0000, Martin Rich
wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:39:20 +0000, Kat
wrote:
[snip]
No matter what sort of ticket or Pre Pay alone you have on Oyster, it's
essential to use the yellow reader at both the start and finish of your
journey.

So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5
journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The
posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the
readers there if you're on pre-pay.

That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a
paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record
looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a
zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or
I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the
station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from
Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce
where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system
is that clever). At the other end, if the paper extension won't open
the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The
extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what
type of Travelcard I have.

The issue at the heart of this is whether you *have* to validate solely
for Pre-Pay or part Pre-Pay trips compared to a Travelcard only trip.

As I think I (and others) have posted before it is essential to record
entry and exit points for any trip that involves pre-pay. The
subtleties relating to extension tickets being paid from the pre-pay
part of an Oyster card have not been well communicated IMO.

Your experience of using Finsbury Park is different to other whole gated
trips simply because you have not validated your travelcard part of your
Oyster card (you don't have to) which is why a trip record would show
and entry in Zone 1 and then presumably an exit back at Zone 1 because
there is no validation at the Zone 3 station to which you have travelled
on a magnetic ticket. The system has to be tolerant of such cases
because if it wasn't thousands of people who enter the LUL system via
open interchanges (e.g. Highbury cross platform from WAGN) would have
their cards rejected. This would not be a sensible policy.

Extension tickets hardly ever open ticket gates at the destination
because they are for a lower fare than the trip you have taken from the
station where you bought it. Therefore a gate will always reject them on
exit as "under fare". If you bought an extension (for your return leg)
at your Zone 3 station to add to your Z12 T/Card then it would work
because the ticket was bought where the gate is and is for a valid fare
to some other station from Z3.

There is a clear need to provide a sensible explanation as to

a) how travelling out of Zone with an Oyster card works.
b) what passengers should do with their cards.
c) what the ramifications are if for whatever reason they are unable /
unwilling to comply with the rules.

I was most surprised when Kat posted that someone with zero Pre-Pay
balance had been deducted into negative value because they presented
their Travelcard Oyster out of zone. While I understand why the system
does it I think it is barmy to put passengers in a position of needing
to do something with their cards when there is nothing to explain to
them the way to avoid it happening. I've looked at the Oyster website
and I was not terribly impressed with the FAQ.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
There is a clear need to provide a sensible explanation as to

a) how travelling out of Zone with an Oyster card works.
b) what passengers should do with their cards.
c) what the ramifications are if for whatever reason they are unable /
unwilling to comply with the rules.

I was most surprised when Kat posted that someone with zero Pre-Pay
balance had been deducted into negative value because they presented
their Travelcard Oyster out of zone. While I understand why the system
does it I think it is barmy to put passengers in a position of needing
to do something with their cards when there is nothing to explain to
them the way to avoid it happening. I've looked at the Oyster website
and I was not terribly impressed with the FAQ.

There is a fairly clear explanation about travelling out of zone with an
Oyster season ticket in a leaflet which all stations should have. I make
a point of handing it to passengers who've been caught out this way in
addition to explaining how the system works.

I cannot see how it could have been made to work in any other way
though; magnetic tickets just can't *talk* to Oyster cards.

I have to say, it's all very time consuming though..
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

In message , Martin Rich
writes
So far, I haven't been doing this at Finsbury Park, and I've done 5
journeys starting or finishing at Finsbury Park so far this week. The
posters at Finsbury Park imply that it's only essential to use the
readers there if you're on pre-pay.

That's why I remain slightly puzzled by the problems with using a
paper extension ticket. If I buy a paper extension, my Oyster record
looks just the same whether I've travelled from a zone 1 station to a
zone 3 station, and presented my extension at the zone3 station, or
I've travelled from zone 1 to Finsbury Park and just walked out of the
station at Finsbury Park. (As it happens I usually travel to or from
Finsbury Park by W3 or W7 bus, so it should be easy enough to deduce
where I've been from the complete record, but I don't think the system
is that clever).

I have Finsbury Park listed as a Continuation Exit. This means, I think,
that if you validate there and carry on your journey, you'll only be
charged for one journey and not two because the system *knows*

At the other end, if the paper extension won't open
the gate, what would I do if I still had a paper season ticket? The
extension ticket and the gate at the zone 3 station don't know what
type of Travelcard I have.

But someone would have to look at your extension ticket and your
magnetic season ticket to allow you into the system in Zone 1; at the
other end of your journey, your season ticket would let you out.
But supposing you had Zone 1 - 2 and wanted to travel from 3 to 3 across
Zones 1/2. You would then need to show the extension at the start and
finish of your journey to be let in and out.
An Oyster with Pre Pay simplifies all this by doing the whole thing
automatically.

Sorry. I've rambled on for much too long about one obscure case.

No problem; it's interesting and I'm learning a lot.

We are having a lot of problems with people (with Zones 2/3) using the
NR service from say Highbury and Islington to Mile End via Stratford.
Their Oysters are assuming that they've come across Zone 1 via OXO and
so charging them £1.60. There should be validators on the NR platforms
at Stratford, if so, I'll advise people to make sure they validate there
before getting on the Central Line and hopefully that will solve the
problem.
--
Kat Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Kat wrote in
:


We are having a lot of problems with people (with Zones 2/3) using the
NR service from say Highbury and Islington to Mile End via Stratford.
Their Oysters are assuming that they've come across Zone 1 via OXO and
so charging them £1.60. There should be validators on the NR platforms
at Stratford, if so, I'll advise people to make sure they validate there
before getting on the Central Line and hopefully that will solve the
problem.

How is this supposed to work? How will the validators at Stratford tell
between a Highbury and Islington to Stratford via OXO onward via National
Rail and a Highbury and Islington to (say) Leyton via NLL? Or does the
user need to validate both "in" (through the barrier) then "out" (on the
platform, I assume one has been provided) at Highbury, "in" at Stratford
and then "out" at Mile End? What a performance!

David

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Kat
wrote:

[travelling out of zone]
There is a fairly clear explanation about travelling out of zone with an
Oyster season ticket in a leaflet which all stations should have. I make
a point of handing it to passengers who've been caught out this way in
addition to explaining how the system works.

Ah - I need to get some leaflets then.

I cannot see how it could have been made to work in any other way
though; magnetic tickets just can't *talk* to Oyster cards.

Well yes I understand why it works that way and it is still early days
but I would have thought it was an advantage that should be sold far
more loudly to the public to encourage both take up of cards and also
understanding of how to use validators on open interchanges. I'm not
very impressed with the minimalist signing.

I have to say, it's all very time consuming though..

regrettably it was always going to be the case that some transactions
(e.g. incomplete journeys) would be rather involved.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!