In message , Richard Adamfi
writes
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:45:19 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on
the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your
destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension
deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way
of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard
zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your
journey's end.

Is it possible for an inspector to check tickets further from the
platform than the validator?

For example, you have a zone 3 Travelcard, go to Finsbury Park, pass
the validator, then inspector gets you for not validating?

If you mean, do RCIs only operate on the paid-side, then the answer is
no.
--
Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra,
sticky bears is ninepence"

In message , Richard Adamfi
writes
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:47:28 +0000, Kat
wrote:


But this is no different from the magnetic ticket system.
CofC state that you must have a ticket to cover the whole of the journey
you are making.
A RCI finding no Pre Pay balance on an Oyster could either issue a paper
extension ticket or a £10.00 Penalty Fare.

I think the argument here is that you would always keep a Pre Pay
balance, just in case you had to validate.

And if you never intend to add Pre Pay to your Oyster, always make sure
you buy an extension.
From what I've gathered, the £10.00 Penalty Fare is going to be very
strictly enforced now.
--
Kat Reality is the leading cause of stress among those in touch with it.

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:45:19 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders
who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster
card but if you are out of zone you do for the
purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions.

I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you like on
the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to your
destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your extension
deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have no way
of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of your travelcard
zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the extension at your
journey's end.

there are other ways of knowing how a card is (mis)used. Be sure that
the ability to detect fraud will get better not worse. Open (ungated)
entry and exit points are not a good way to design a stored value system
but the scheme is unaffordable if it has to carry the cost of gating and
manning every single entry / exit point to the LUL system. Also how on
earth do you deal with segregating people e.g. between Richmond and
Gunnersbury, where there is inter-operation?

It's a compromise design - there are risks but they have to be
controlled.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"John Rowland" wrote in
:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders
who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster
card but if you are out of zone you do for the purposes of calculation
of auto ticket extensions.

I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel anywhere you
like on the system with a one-zone travelcard, and then when you get to
your destination, if the gates are active, you swipe and have your
extension deducted... if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and
you have no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route out of
your travelcard zone, you just say you are going to swipe for the
extension at your journey's end.


It will be interesting to see what happens: given the capacity of the
system to remember journeys made it would be reasonable to assume some kind
of ability to query this database and identify potentially fraudulent
travel patterns such as this.

Now where is my copy of the Data Protection Act?

David

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

With a validator equipped station Travelcard holders
who are "in zone" don't have to swipe their Oyster
card but if you are out of zone you do for the
purposes of calculation of auto ticket extensions.

I see no way that LU can prevent fraud. You can travel
anywhere you like on the system with a one-zone travelcard,
and then when you get to your destination, if the gates
are active, you swipe and have your extension deducted...
if the gates are inactive, you just walk out and you have
no way of getting caught. If any RCI stops you en route
out of your travelcard zone, you just say you are going
to swipe for the extension at your journey's end.

I think I've seen the flaw in my argument. (By the way, all of the following
is supposition since I haven't read any Oyster leaflets.)

Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you
are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey. If an
RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster
containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this
looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future.
If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster,
you can then be busted. If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster,
then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the
extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum
possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). Therefore the system can not
generally be defrauded in the way I suggested.

But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in
your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you
leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through
Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do
that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since
you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be
debited for the extension.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

In message , John Rowland
writes
If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster,
then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the
extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum
possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever). Therefore the system can not
generally be defrauded in the way I suggested.

But only if you attempt to come back through Zone 6.
You might legitimately argue that you got to that station by some other
means and just buy the extension to return. Otherwise, all that would
happen would be that your Oyster will be expecting to exit when used
next in your valid zone so won't open an entry gate.
There'd be a 02 on the POD and unless we checked the ticket with an HHC
(which takes time) would have to assume that the Oyster had not been
validated at the end of the journey... it happens all the time.


But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in
your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you
leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through
Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do
that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since
you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be
debited for the extension.

Read my earlier post; it would all depend on whether the Oyster
contained Pre Pay as well a season ticket.
--
Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra,
sticky bears is ninepence"

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

But a possible fraud does spring to mind. You have a 2 to 6 Travelcard in
your Oyster. You swipe when you enter at Finchley Road, and again when you
leave at Earls Court. The system doesn't know if you have travelled through
Zone 1 or via Rayners Lane, unless it checks journey times.... can it do
that? Any RCI who caught you in Zone 1 wouldn't be able to bust you, since
you could legitimately be planning to exit at a Zone 1 station and be
debited for the extension.

I'd would have thought that the system should pick that up:

a) Your last validation point was at Finchley Road.
b) You could make the journey via Rayner's Lane and be ok - but it
looks unlikely!

c) Gates raise 'possible dumbell' flag - SA asks where ypu've been....


No real change from now....

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 03:32:15 +0000, Stuart
wrote:

BTW hos do Oysters work on National Rail services?

If it's a pre-pay, it's only valid on National Rail services to/from
Underground interchange stations. This is where things get stupid and
will lead to absurd price anomalies, especially on weekends and public
holidays.

Weekend/public holiday single ticket example:
Walthamstow Central Z3 - Underground Z1 via NR and/or Tube: £1.80
St James Street Z3 - Zone 1 Underground Z1 via NR and Tube: £2.50
Hackney Downs Z2 - Zone 1 Underground Z1 via NR and Tube: £2.20

So come Oyster pre-pay, using singles travelling from a Zone 3 station
can be CHEAPER than travelling from a Zone 2 station!

Oyster has further reduced inter-availability of tickets and price
matching. Those using National Rail services and single tickets get a
fare rise and miss the opportunity for cheaper weekend and public
holiday single tickets. Not a good time to only be near to National
Rail IMHO.


Cheers,

Jason.

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:



Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you
are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey.

No you aren't. Not if the gates are open/ungated, etc. Only pre-pay
users must present their cards.

If an
RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster
containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this
looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future.

Why - you are not required to?


If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster,
you can then be busted.

Why? See above.

If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster,
then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the
extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum
possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever).

How will you be charged if you don't swipe? It doesn't know where you
are - you could have got out at a open station within your zone.

In message , K
writes
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:44 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:



Even if your Oyster contains a valid travelcard for the whole journey, you
are still required to swipe at the beginning and end of your journey.

No you aren't. Not if the gates are open/ungated, etc. Only pre-pay
users must present their cards.

If an
RCI catches you halfway through your journey with an unswiped Oyster
containing a valid travelcard for the zone in which you currently are, this
looks suspicious but you would presumably just be warned to swipe in future.

Why - you are not required to?


If the RCI catches you are out of your valid zone with an unswiped oyster,
you can then be busted.

Why? See above.

If you are out of your zone with a swiped Oyster,
then you are obviously intending to swipe on exit and be charged for the
extension... if you don't swipe on exit, you will be charged the maximum
possible extension (to zone 6D or whatever).

How will you be charged if you don't swipe? It doesn't know where you
are - you could have got out at a open station within your zone.



This is turning into a great thread, one that I can thoroughly enjoy for
the time being as I am relatively unaffected by it, as I purchase my
zones 1-6 (non-Oyster) travel card from a WAGN NR station well outside
of zone 6.

This has all the makings of a typical LUL sponsored Brian Rix farce.
(And if you've never heard of Brian Rix then ask your mum or dad!) :-)

Bob. (Who admits that he doesn't work for London Underground!)

--
Bob Adams