In message of Wed, 6 Jul
2011 19:56:21 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:28:27 -0500,
wrote:


[snip]

Just because there is a fare shown on a tariff for a given zonal
combination does not mean that it applies for every origin and
destination pair when using PAYG. This is why TfL have provided the
Single Fare finder - to make it explicit as to whether there is just
one fare for a journey on a given priced route or if there are options
whereby you may need to interchange at a given point or else use a
route validator.

Paul, Have you any perspective on missing data in the Single Fare
Finder?

I grabbed it in January and so have the following sample information
immediately to hand. No fares are shown between Acton Central and Acton
Town. I tried both Oyster and LU CSCs and got no satisfactory answer.
The Oyster helpline was able to give me missing fares, but could not
explain the absences. 453 locations out of 620 do not have fares with
Crouch Hill. Starts Abbey Wood [National Rail], Acton Main Line
[National Rail], Acton Town. There are even holes in the set Overground
+ Underground. (An example of this would take me longer.)

I got the impression that Colin did not understand my notion of
splitting a journey. If you use PAYG to go between two nodes in zones 1
and 2 in 0430-1900 Mon-Fri in more than 100 minutes and less than 200,
you must pay two fares.

This is usually achievable by touching in at point 1.0 touching out and
in at point 1.4 and touching out at point 2.

I say usually. If there is a self OSI such as at King's Cross St
Pancras, touching out and in does not complete a journey and start a
second. Any applicable OSI vitiates splitting attempts.

Touching out at the same station as you touch in will attract incomplete
and unstarted journey penalties. e.g. Board at Farringdon, go to
Liverpool Street, buy a coffee from the shop on platform 1 and return to
Farringdon. I can't remember the timeout on this. Finsbury Park is a
surprising example of this - I have not tried since FCC platforms got
gates there. ISTR the relevant FPK timeout is 30 minutes.

Occasionally, randomly, unrepeatably and inexplicably (this list is
probably tautological), Oyster decides to ignore a 1.4 stop. I have seen
it do so at London Bridge and Stanmore among others. Stanmore!!!

LU ticket office staff do not seem to have enough power to resolve
overcharging situations. They can remove the marginal fare, but can't
take account of caps. e.g. After I achieved a Z1-2 cap, I wandered past
the gateless inbound validator at Waterloo and was clobbered at Bank. LU
staff cured the 2.50, Oyster helpline the 1.90. Had I realised that I
had not touched in, I could have saved this tedium by touching the bi-
directional validator between Northern and FCC platforms at Moorgate and
out at Moorgate.
--
Walter Briscoe

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 02:28:27 -0500,
wrote:

That is where I disagree with you. If there are not-via-zone 1 fares
this seems a reasonable one which should exist. If there is a higher
fare for a zone 2 - zone 1 - zone 2 journey then there really should be
a not via zone 1 fare option.

I'm sorry but this is plainly daft for the journey you did. It is an
extremely long way round for a short cut to go from Highbury to Putney
NR via the NLL and WLL and then SWT. No one in their right mind would
take that route as a quick or effective way to travel. There are
faster routes via Zone 1 and it is an entirely reasonable assumption
that it will be the choice of almost everyone to go that way. This is
why there is only one priced route.

This argument would be more credible if there wasn't a Highbury to Clapham
not via zone 1 fare. That is the default fare too, with via zone 1 as the
alternatives.

One thing that would of course help in making it all that bit more
comprehensible would be if there was a single Oyster PAYG tariff
rather than the current arrangement of there being separate TfL
(i.e. Tube & DLR), NR and TfL+NR 'through' journey tariffs. However
getting to that point isn't likely to be remotely easy (see how
long it took for the TOCs to adopt Oyster PAYG universally in
London).
I thought there was. There are tables showing fares for pretty well all
zone combinations so I reasonably thought it applied to my journey and
that making the non-trivial effort to touch the pink validator at
Willesden Junction (try it some time if changing there from a Richmond
to a Clapham Junction train) I decided to pursue the charge.

Just because there is a fare shown on a tariff for a given zonal
combination does not mean that it applies for every origin and
destination pair when using PAYG. This is why TfL have provided the
Single Fare finder - to make it explicit as to whether there is just
one fare for a journey on a given priced route or if there are options
whereby you may need to interchange at a given point or else use a
route validator.

You obviously know the system better than I do. It sure confused me,

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:

I'm sorry but this is plainly daft for the journey you did. It is an
extremely long way round for a short cut to go from Highbury to Putney
NR via the NLL and WLL and then SWT. No one in their right mind would
take that route as a quick or effective way to travel. There are
faster routes via Zone 1 and it is an entirely reasonable assumption
that it will be the choice of almost everyone to go that way. This is
why there is only one priced route.

This argument would be more credible if there wasn't a Highbury to Clapham
not via zone 1 fare. That is the default fare too, with via zone 1 as the
alternatives.

Highbury to Clapham has a direct service at peak hours, backed up by a
same-platform interchange for the rest of the time. Taking a longer but
direct journey on London Overground (and predecessors) has long been
recognised as quite common because it's smoother for people who aren't in a
rush and wish to avoid particularly stressful interchange stations. But if
the journey involves interchanges anyway then the likeliehood falls away.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...

Highbury to Clapham has a direct service at peak hours, backed up by a
same-platform interchange for the rest of the time.

In fact Highbury & I to Clapham Jn now has at least two tph all day,
increasing to four tph peak, since the May timetable improvements...

Paul S

Paul Corfield wrote:

Highbury to Clapham has a direct service at peak hours, backed up by a
same-platform interchange for the rest of the time.

Err it actually has a x15 min service in the peaks and x30 at all
other times since the May timetable change. Off peak I have certainly
seen people waiting for a direct Clapham train at places like
Brondesbury or Hampstead Heath.

Ah my bad. In my defence I tend to use different sections of Overground and
hadn't seen any advertising of a more frequent through service.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:17:06 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

wrote:

I'm sorry but this is plainly daft for the journey you did. It is
an extremely long way round for a short cut to go from Highbury to
Putney NR via the NLL and WLL and then SWT. No one in their right
mind would take that route as a quick or effective way to travel.
There are faster routes via Zone 1 and it is an entirely reasonable
assumption that it will be the choice of almost everyone to go that
way. This is why there is only one priced route.

This argument would be more credible if there wasn't a Highbury to
Clapham not via zone 1 fare. That is the default fare too, with via
zone 1 as the alternatives.

Highbury to Clapham has a direct service at peak hours, backed up by a
same-platform interchange for the rest of the time.

Err it actually has a x15 min service in the peaks and x30 at all
other times since the May timetable change. Off peak I have certainly
seen people waiting for a direct Clapham train at places like
Brondesbury or Hampstead Heath.

Taking a longer but
direct journey on London Overground (and predecessors) has long been
recognised as quite common because it's smoother for people who aren't
in a rush and wish to avoid particularly stressful interchange
stations. But if the journey involves interchanges anyway then the
likeliehood falls away.

This pretty much sums up what I was going to say to Colin by way of
reply.

The Clapham Junction interchange to the Windsor lines is pretty easy,
especially now there are lifts.

It looks like I should have touched out and in, not at Highbury but at
Clapham Junction. It looks like the journey that far would not have
exceeded the zones 1 & 2 100 minute limit and would therefor have cost
£1.25 plus 85 p from Clapham Junction to Putney. Instead I ended up paying
£1.90 mainly thanks, I gather, to the fact that it was the only way to
credit me anything.

--
Colin Rosenstiel