On 20 July, 12:53, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:44:44 -0700 (PDT)

plcd1 wrote:
In broad terms I'd say yes. *It is certainly a decent service level to
begin a new rail service with. *We're not talking about a tube line
nor a tram line in an urban area where the UK expectation would be a

But the ELL is essentially being marketed as an almost-tube line so they
should back it up with a tube like service.

B2003

The core ELL is running an almost tube like service. 12tph at the
moment, rising to 16 (4 per hour for each southern branch) when phase
2 is complete.

Steve

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:04:07 +0100, Kevin Ayton
wrote:

On 20/07/2011 23:22, wrote:




Chingford is only 4 tph?

When it 1st electrified, (Nov. '60, when I were but a young lad....)
it was 6 tph off-peak& 9 tph in the peaks.
Train were probably longer too, 6-car off-peak& 9-car peak.
'Twas before the Victoria line opened, so perhaps that stole some of
the traffic?


DC

I commuted from Chingford to Liv St to go to school (at Blackfriars)
from 65 to 72. My recollection is 9 per hour in the peaks - three groups
of three, one group every 20 mins. The first two in each group ran fast
between St. James' Street and Liverpool Street, while the third had
stops at Clapton, Hackney Downs and Bethnal Green. My memory is of just
one every 20 mins off-peak, but I could be wrong.

Rush hour trains were 9 car (3x3), but off-peak I think were only 3 cars.

That dind't change even with the opening of the Victoria Line at Hoe
Street (or Walthamstow Central as it became) - well not before my family
moved over to the SW side of London and I stopped doing that journey.

Kevin

I used to live v. near Wood Street Loco Shed, (the wrong side of the
tracks....) & sometimes used train + bus to go to schooI, on the
other side of Walthamstow. (McCentee in Billet Road) rather than two
trolley bus rides.
I finished school in 1963 & started commuting to the city, sometime
cycling but usually by train so I'm quite sure about the service
patterns back then.

The off-peak 6 tph pattern was really 3 all stations + 3 omitting
Clapton & Bethenal Green, explained by pretty coloured "clock-face"
posters on the local stations.

By the time the Victoria Line had opened I'd moved (with parents)
across W'stow to Hoe Street, so I had a choice of routes into London.
Since Kings X was only about 20 minutes away I have a few memories of
Deltics departing the cross after dark.....'

My 1st two years in high school were spent in a building backing onto
the Goblin, adjacent to Walthamstow Queens Road good yard, which had a
daily pick-up goods + much shunting, worked by whatever steam loco
Cricklewood could find on the day. Black Fives are not at there best
shunting a coal yard......

Lots of other sightings, Flying Pig Ivat 2-6-0's on the St. P to
Tilbury boat trains, 9F's on tank trains from Thames Haven & the ECS
for an LTS rush-hour train that was stabled in a siding at South
Tottenham, worked by a Brush type 2 (class 30?).
Before the Bed-Pan dieselisation, we endured Fowler class 3MT's
trundling back & forth with 3 coach trains, usually between Kentish
Town & Barking, but with occaisional forays into St. Pancras, (The
shortish platform 1?) & one weekday PM train which worked around the
long forgotten curve into the bay platform at East Ham!

This was a total surprise to me, & I watched it propel out of the
platfrom back to Barking be fore following it on a District line
train!

I so wish that I'd owned a camera back then, but I probably couldn't
of afforded the film.........
But that was then, I've been living near the LT&S since '74, enjoying
the wonders of the varied MU fleet through the years & todays reliable
357's on an up to date railway.

I'll stop now before you all get bored..........

DC

On 21/07/2011 10:41, Dave wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:55:36 -0700 (PDT),
uttered:



Great isn't it. Perhaps, like DLR, the Overground will continue to
grow.


Is it!
More lines with those crap trains and having to sit facing someone and
not being able to get a decent view out of the windows.

Whatever types of seats are used, wandering round the backs of south
London is never quite going to be up there with the Bergensbanen.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 2011-07-20 21:39:18 +0000, Paul Corfield said:

On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:32:14 -0500,
wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

As a local to me example the Hertford East - Stratford service is only
hourly (!) off peak and at best half hourly in the peaks. OK

Not in the current M-F timetable, surely? Table 22 tells me there is no
off-peak service from Hertford East to Stratford, just half hourly to
Liverpool Street. There is also an hourly service from Stansted Airport or
Bishop's Stortford to Stratford. From Hertford you can connect into this
at various stations between Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale.

sigh - so I got the northern destination wrong. The train service is
hourly from "somewhere" to Stratford. I am sure it used to be to /
from Hertford East. As I am only travelling between two stops I don't
care where it goes to beyond T Hale!

I should remember this place is pedant's corner.

A long, long time ago - when Stansted Airport station first opened -
there was an hourly stopper running Stansted Airport - Stratford -
Hertford East and vice versa, running both ways through Channelsea
Junction.

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:07:52 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 07:56:26PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

I'm not sure that Overground is being marketed as an almost tube
line in terms of frequencies.

Maybe not in terms of frequencies, but it is marketed as being a tube
line. Consider the announcements at stations that these days often
end "there is a good service on all other underground lines,
including the DLR and London Overground".

That isn't a marketing point. It reflects the fact that management of
Underground and Rail operations is now under Mike Brown. Therefore
all
TfL rail services should be grouped as a whole.

The average passenger neither knows nor cares who the manager just
happens to be. If the Overground is included with the Underground (for
whatever reason) rather than proper railways, then people are going to
treat it as being like the Underground rather than the proper railways.
It's that simple.

Other manifestations
of this are the combined service status info on the TfL real time page
and on display boards. Our internal info feed now covers DLR and
Overground as well as the Tube.

The average passenger is not going to take your internal info feed into
account when judging the Overground frequencies.

Other manifestations
of this are the combined service status info on the TfL real time page
and on display boards. Our internal info feed now covers DLR and
Overground as well as the Tube.

That is all very useful. But I do also wonder about the treatment of
the Overground as a single entity. I don't quibble with that in the
short term as a means to establish the brand. But I can already see
that it causes difficulty when eg a problem on one line may lead to
reports of a "problem on the Overground" which has zero impact on users
of the others lines but causes them to worry and/or ask staff for more
information. Is there any plan for the medium to long term to brand and
report the status of the separate Overground "lines" on the real time
page and the screens at stations?

And if not why not ? - asked in the best traditions of Select Committee
questioning of course
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

"Paul Corfield" wrote

I am sure that the Vic Line did divert some traffic but travel demand
has grown over the years and the trains are well used in the peaks.
Off peak not so much but there are still reasonable numbers of people
using the line. We could be much worse off in terms of frequencies
than we are so I'm grateful we have the service level we have.

I'd be interested in statistics of the number of passengers on the Chingford
(and Enfield Town) lines over the years. The Jazz service in 1920 delivered
24 tph over the suburban line out of Liverpool Street. When they were
planning it they did some counts - the 6.5 pm LSt to Chingford was recorded
as carrying 1442 passengers on departure from Hackney Downs. Most alighted
at St James Street or Hoe Street (now Walthamstow Central) Only 49 made it
to Chingford.

Peter

On Jul 21, 10:31*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote

I am sure that the Vic Line did divert some traffic but travel demand
has grown over the years and the trains are well used in the peaks.
Off peak not so much but there are still reasonable numbers of people
using the line. *We could be much worse off in terms of frequencies
than we are so I'm grateful we have the service level we have.

I'd be interested in statistics of the number of passengers on the Chingford
(and Enfield Town) lines over the years. The Jazz service in 1920 delivered
24 tph over the suburban line out of Liverpool Street. When they were
planning it they did some counts - the 6.5 pm LSt to Chingford was recorded
as carrying 1442 passengers on departure from Hackney Downs. Most alighted
at St James Street or Hoe Street (now Walthamstow Central) Only 49 made it
to Chingford.

Not sure where you'd go to get that level of statistical info these
days. It's an interesting stat though - I doubt we're at those levels
these days. I don't use the line that regularly but did when I first
came to London - still had slam door 30x stock then. I recall that
there wasn't that much trade to / from Hackney Downs and virtually
nothing at Bethnal Green on Chingford trains. London Fields and
Cambridge Heath (not served directly, of course) where ghost stations
even in the peak as they were in such a parlous state. These days
there are decent numbers of people using Bethnal Green and plenty of
people get on and off at Hackney Downs. People also seem to use
Cambridge Heath and London Fields but not in massive numbers. NXEA
stations aren't the best though and I suspect the "London Overground
spec" would brighten them up and make them feel much safer and "looked
after" than they appear at present.

--
Paul C
via Google

On Jul 22, 2:08*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
NXEA
stations aren't the best though and I suspect the "London Overground
spec" would brighten them up and make them feel much safer and "looked
after" than they appear at present.

May well do. The not dissimilar Merseytravel spec makes stations in
the Liverpool area seem a whole lot less threatening, except Liverpool
Central, which is and will remain a dump until they close it for a
year or so for a complete rip out and rebuild.

Neil

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 07:05:36PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

That isn't a marketing point. It reflects the fact that management of
Underground and Rail operations is now under Mike Brown. Therefore all
TfL rail services should be grouped as a whole. Other manifestations
of this are the combined service status info on the TfL real time page
and on display boards. Our internal info feed now covers DLR and
Overground as well as the Tube.

Any idea when Overground passengers will be able to get SMS alerts when
it breaks?

http://alerts.tfl.gov.uk/html/tuberoute.jsp still lists the East London
line. It also doesn't appear to know that the Circle line has turned
into a teacup.

--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Human Rights left unattended may be removed,
destroyed, or damaged by the security services.