"John Rowland" wrote in
message ...
Hi all,

I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal
pedestrian
crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have
here in
Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just
east of
Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the
nearest person
I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this
the only
one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial.


Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes,
who was Commissioner during the 1940s.

The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an
earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross
the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I
suppose.

The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then
wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable
Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans.
Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none
is planned, although the research should long since have been
completed.

The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was
the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's
an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a
roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible.

Jeremy Parker

"Jeremy Parker" wrote in message

The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was
the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's
an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a
roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible.

This is used in residential areas in Holland, there is a kerb at the outer
edge of the round-about, and then outside this is the bike lane, and the
bikes have right of way over approaching vehicles on the roads. It's caught
me out a few times, as a driver, but seems to work once you get used to it.

--
r

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:12:05 -0000, "Jeremy Parker"
wrote:


"John Rowland" wrote in
message ...
Hi all,

I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal
pedestrian
crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have
here in
Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just
east of
Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the
nearest person
I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this
the only
one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial.


Ah yes, a Barnes dance - named after NYC Traffic Commisioner Barnes,
who was Commissioner during the 1940s.

The Burnt Oak one was the second in Britain, I gather. There was an
earlier one in Sussex somewhere. Half a century for ideas to cross
the Atlantic (in either direction) is about par for the course, I
suppose.

The Burnt Oak barnes dance stated off as part of DfT (as it then
wasn't) research project S205Q. "Junction Improvements for Vulnerable
Road Users", project management by Faber Maunsell in St. Albans.
Mysteriously there has never been a report of the research, and none
is planned, although the research should long since have been
completed.

The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was
the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's
an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a
roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible.

There's one of those in one of the roundabouts in Sturry Road
(Canterbury) near PC World.

It's a standard roundabout, but with a cycle lane. Odd to look at, as
no cyclists would ever go that way

--Nick.
--
http://www.blackstar.co.uk/scp/id/what - Want DVDs/Games?
Fax: +44 (0) 7974 984182 --- icq: 9235201 --- Hayn on dal

In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

Hi all,

I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal
pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we
usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six
crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London.
According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that for
about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to have
been there too long to be a trial.

There's one near Battersea Park station with just one diagonal.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Robert Woolley wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:40:35 -0000, "John Rowland"
I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal pedestrian
crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we usually have here in
Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six crossings just east of
Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London. According to the nearest person
I could accost, it's been like that for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only
one in Britain? It seems to have been there too long to be a trial.

Its not unique. TfL introduced a similar one in Wandsworth about 2
years ago....

From memory, there's one at the junction of Acton Lane and Winchester
St., south of Acton High Street. Both roads are fairly narrow.

It used to be possible to cross diagonally at the NE corner of
Parliament Square, if you walked fast.

Of course it was never marked - it's a long way. Don't know if it's
still possible.

Colin McKenzie

Richard Buttrey wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:35 -0000, "Paul Oter"
wrote:


"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message

The big mystery is why so few crossings in London are marked like that.
Space is such a constraint that most of London's signalled crossings use
the Barnes Dance sequence UIVMM.

I suspect the main constraint is that a diagonal crossing, being a greater
distance, requires vehicle traffic to be stopped for longer than with an
ordinary orthogonal crossing. So it's pedestrian convenience vs motorist
convenience.

PaulO

An optimal phasing for a number of pedestrians would surely depend on
where pedestrians are trying to get to, and the relative numbers
wanting to make a simple orthogonal move and those wanting a diagonal
move?

If all pedestrians wanted to end up on a diagonally opposite corner,
then one diagonal move as opposed to two orthogonal moves would result
in a shorter overall crossing time and obviously a shorter stopping
time for motorists. It becomes more complex when a group of
pedestrians want to undertake both types of crossing. Clearly there's
a break even point somewhere which minimises the sum total of all
pedestrian crossing movement times.

You would rarely, if ever, find a crossroads where all pedestrian
desire-lines were diagonal. Even if the majority are there is nothing
to be gained by preventing orthoganal crossing at the same time as
diagonal, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

"umpston" wrote in message
om...

I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has
been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time
would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the
(orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about
them!

The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the
considered the diagonal option.

There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back
up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then
spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes
pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic
and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one
over the other.

Dave.

"Jeremy Parker" typed




The most controversial junction "improvement" being researched was
the idea of putting bike lanes round the edge of roundabouts. That's
an obvious (to me) killer. If you are ever riding a bike round a
roundabout, stay as far away from the bike lanes as possible.

Jeremy Parker


There is a dreadful example of this in Burnt Oak barely 1/4 mile from
the traffic lights at the othe end of Orange Hill Road :-(

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote in
:

In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

I have often seen footage of foreign crossroads with 2 diagonal
pedestrian crossings in addition to the 4 orthogonal crossings we
usually have here in Britain. Today I found a crossroads with all six
crossings just east of Burnt Oak tube station in Northwest London.
According to the nearest person I could accost, it's been like that
for about 2 or 3 years. Is this the only one in Britain? It seems to
have been there too long to be a trial.

There's one near Battersea Park station with just one diagonal.


And another at the junction of Kingsland High Street and Shacklewell
Lane in Hackney where they added a single diagonal in summer last year.

"Dave Liney" wrote in message ...
"umpston" wrote in message
om...

I am aware of examples where a diagonal crossing has
been considered but rejected because this additional crossing time
would result in unacceptable traffic queues. Obviously this means the
(orthagonal) pedestrian crossing route is longer - but who cares about
them!

The planners would appear to have cared about pedestrians because the
considered the diagonal option.

..... and rejected it - in the case I was referring to

There are places where having traffic queuing at one set of lights will back
up to the point where it interferes with other junctions. Which could then
spread and help no-one. All junction timings are a balancing act, sometimes
pedestrians are prioritised, other times road traffic. I'd prefer traffic
and pedestrian flows to be optimised rather than dogmatically choosing one
over the other.

I agree absolutely. Diagonal crossings are only likely to be feasible
where either traffic is light enough or where the road is wide enough
for multi-lane approaches long enough to reduce potential traffic
queuing problems (generally the wider the approaches, the more
vehicles will get through the junction in the same length of time).
There is, of course, another trade-off here between the traffic
queuing-time saved by having wider roads versus the additional time
needed for pedestrians to cross them.

Limited road-width is another reason why diagonal crossings are less
likely to be found in this country. We tend to have narrower roads in
our urban areas.