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Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...v/2011/08.html
Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
On Aug 18, 3:20*pm, Tristán White
wrote: http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...stadler-wins-l... Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. Sorry to reply to my own post, but I forgot to add, it's another kick in the teeth for Bombardier. OK, this is nowhere near as lucrative a project as the Thameslink one, which was lost out to Siemens, but it's still surely something they would have hoped to win - Bombardier made the current Croydon tram stock, didn't they? |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
"Tristán White" wrote in message
On Aug 18, 3:20 pm, Tristán White wrote: http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...stadler-wins-l... Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. Sorry to reply to my own post, but I forgot to add, it's another kick in the teeth for Bombardier. OK, this is nowhere near as lucrative a project as the Thameslink one, which was lost out to Siemens, but it's still surely something they would have hoped to win - Bombardier made the current Croydon tram stock, didn't they? Yes, but in Vienna, not Derby. |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 07:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Trist=E1n_White?= wrote: Sorry to reply to my own post, but I forgot to add, it's another kick in the teeth for Bombardier. OK, this is nowhere near as lucrative a project as the Thameslink one, which was lost out to Siemens, but it's still surely something they would have hoped to win - Bombardier made the current Croydon tram stock, didn't they? I wouldn't be surprised if the endless problems with the introduction of the new victoria line stock due to inadequate testing hasn't helped Bombadiers case in recent bids. B2003 |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
wrote in message
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 07:26:17 -0700 (PDT) =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Trist=E1n_White?= wrote: Sorry to reply to my own post, but I forgot to add, it's another kick in the teeth for Bombardier. OK, this is nowhere near as lucrative a project as the Thameslink one, which was lost out to Siemens, but it's still surely something they would have hoped to win - Bombardier made the current Croydon tram stock, didn't they? I wouldn't be surprised if the endless problems with the introduction of the new victoria line stock due to inadequate testing hasn't helped Bombadiers case in recent bids. Not to mention late deliveries of most recent Electrostar orders and the embarrassment over the supposed exhaust problems with the 172s. |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 18/08/2011 15:26, Tristán White wrote:
On Aug 18, 3:20 pm, Tristán wrote: http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...stadler-wins-l... Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. Sorry to reply to my own post, but I forgot to add, it's another kick in the teeth for Bombardier. OK, this is nowhere near as lucrative a project as the Thameslink one, which was lost out to Siemens, but it's still surely something they would have hoped to win - Bombardier made the current Croydon tram stock, didn't they? Yes, but did Bombardier even bid for this batch? They weren't on the shortlist, which IIRC was Stadler, Pesa and CAF/Edinburgh (one careful owner, never used, still in the box). Maybe they don't like such tiny orders, which is more Stadler's line. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article
, Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. .. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote:
In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article , Arthur
Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 19/08/2011 21:58, Ken wrote:
In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. Where has no service? They even use the centre road at East Croydon in everyday service now. It is surely hardly a surprise that the busiest bit has the most frequent service, and needs more capacity. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
It's perhaps worth mentioning that all travel on Tramlink is free today
and tomorrow (21st): a gesture intended to get people back on the network after the recent closures due to damage during the riots. -- Paul Terry |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article , Paul Corfield
writes On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:58:59 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. I am confused by your statement. Surely the plan is to put the trams on the section where there is the greatest demand in order to provide relief from overcrowding? I thought it was understood that the Wimbledon line suffers some of the worst overcrowding so it makes sense to add service there even if only on part of the route. The single track sections are a bigger and more costly problem to solve. What part of Tramlink has no service that, in your view, should have a service? I am not aware that any part of the Tramlink network has an infrequent service. Frequencies have been bolstered twice since TfL took direct control of the service and the service has never really been that infrequent - especially if you look at some of the rail services on branches in and around South London. A number of them are no better than every 30 minutes off peak although overlap sections do better. Before the tramlink was introduced there was a bus 726 between Bromley and Croydon, the first bus on Sunday Morning leaving Bromley at 6.00. If you have a look at the Tramlink timetable you will find the first tram doesn't leave from Beckenham Junction until 07:20. The laugh is that when they withdrew the bus service, instead of providing any useful information, they put notices in the timetable windows along the route saying "Your services are improving" Transport services are planned by people in suits who drive cars, but want to use the train service (or something that goes on rails) for their commute to work, but use cars for weekend leisure activities. They can't relate to anyone using public transport at weekends and take them to be destitutes or losers with no money but infinite amounts of time, and who deserve to be punished and humiliated. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article , Paul Corfield
writes On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:09:00 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Paul Corfield writes On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:58:59 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. I am confused by your statement. Surely the plan is to put the trams on the section where there is the greatest demand in order to provide relief from overcrowding? I thought it was understood that the Wimbledon line suffers some of the worst overcrowding so it makes sense to add service there even if only on part of the route. The single track sections are a bigger and more costly problem to solve. What part of Tramlink has no service that, in your view, should have a service? I am not aware that any part of the Tramlink network has an infrequent service. Frequencies have been bolstered twice since TfL took direct control of the service and the service has never really been that infrequent - especially if you look at some of the rail services on branches in and around South London. A number of them are no better than every 30 minutes off peak although overlap sections do better. Before the tramlink was introduced there was a bus 726 between Bromley and Croydon, the first bus on Sunday Morning leaving Bromley at 6.00. If you have a look at the Tramlink timetable you will find the first tram doesn't leave from Beckenham Junction until 07:20. The laugh is that when they withdrew the bus service, instead of providing any useful information, they put notices in the timetable windows along the route saying "Your services are improving" Transport services are planned by people in suits who drive cars, but want to use the train service (or something that goes on rails) for their commute to work, but use cars for weekend leisure activities. They can't relate to anyone using public transport at weekends and take them to be destitutes or losers with no money but infinite amounts of time, and who deserve to be punished and humiliated. Now instead of making unsubstantiated rants perhaps you can answer the questions I posed? Referring to a bus route that is long dead is of no relevance to Tramlink where you said there were places where there was no service on the Tramlink network. Ranting about weekend service levels and the alleged motivations of transport planners is not helpful. Please explain the allegations you made about Tramlink rather than just going on a whinge about public transport. If you live in London you are far, far better off than many places where they're lucky to a single bus on a Sunday never mind one at 0600! 00:20 - 07:20 The tram link was used as an excuse for cutting out 726 (and 54 but I didn't personally use that) and in my view is very relevant. That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services are improving". You comments about other places are not germane to the issue. My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 20/08/2011 21:39, Ken wrote:
In article , Paul Corfield writes On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:09:00 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Paul Corfield writes On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:58:59 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. I am confused by your statement. Surely the plan is to put the trams on the section where there is the greatest demand in order to provide relief from overcrowding? I thought it was understood that the Wimbledon line suffers some of the worst overcrowding so it makes sense to add service there even if only on part of the route. The single track sections are a bigger and more costly problem to solve. What part of Tramlink has no service that, in your view, should have a service? I am not aware that any part of the Tramlink network has an infrequent service. Frequencies have been bolstered twice since TfL took direct control of the service and the service has never really been that infrequent - especially if you look at some of the rail services on branches in and around South London. A number of them are no better than every 30 minutes off peak although overlap sections do better. Before the tramlink was introduced there was a bus 726 between Bromley and Croydon, the first bus on Sunday Morning leaving Bromley at 6.00. If you have a look at the Tramlink timetable you will find the first tram doesn't leave from Beckenham Junction until 07:20. Bus 119 runs half-hourly all night, the 05:59 is timetabled at 25 minutes from Bromley South to East Croydon. The laugh is that when they withdrew the bus service, instead of providing any useful information, they put notices in the timetable windows along the route saying "Your services are improving" Transport services are planned by people in suits who drive cars, but want to use the train service (or something that goes on rails) for their commute to work, but use cars for weekend leisure activities. They can't relate to anyone using public transport at weekends and take them to be destitutes or losers with no money but infinite amounts of time, and who deserve to be punished and humiliated. Now try a bus service outside London (where, to be fair, many of the passengers are indeed ....) Now instead of making unsubstantiated rants perhaps you can answer the questions I posed? Referring to a bus route that is long dead is of no relevance to Tramlink where you said there were places where there was no service on the Tramlink network. Ranting about weekend service levels and the alleged motivations of transport planners is not helpful. Please explain the allegations you made about Tramlink rather than just going on a whinge about public transport. If you live in London you are far, far better off than many places where they're lucky to a single bus on a Sunday never mind one at 0600! 00:20 - 07:20 The tram link was used as an excuse for cutting out 726 (and 54 but I didn't personally use that) and in my view is very relevant. Tramlink opened 2000, the 726 was cut back in April 2005 (according to Wikipedia, and it must have been about then as I used it after coming to London in late 2000). Tramlink doesn't go central Bromley (it would nice if it did, but difficult to arrange; Croydon to Bromley is one of those trips that seems slower/more awkward than might be expected). AIUI the problem was that the 726 timings were horribly unreliable by the time it reached Sutton, never mind Kingston, and it only ran hourly. This made it a bit dodgy to use for getting to to the airport and only much use for other trips if you had a lot of time on your hands. It also stopped everywhere, so people going one stop slowed it down even more. That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services are improving". It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. You comments about other places are not germane to the issue. My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day. Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether.... -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article , Arthur
Figgis writes On 20/08/2011 21:39, Ken wrote: In article , Paul Corfield writes On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:09:00 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Paul Corfield writes On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:58:59 +0100, Ken wrote: In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 19/08/2011 17:51, Ken wrote: In article , Tristán White writes http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...dler-wins-lond on-tramlink-tram-order/archiv/2011/08.html Swiss company Stadler's won the £16.3m contract, towards which Croydon Council contributes £3m. So they're using them where they are least needed then. Surely they wouldn't be much good anywhere else in London? What I meant was that they are putting the extra trams where they already have a frequent service, rather than using them where there is no service, or the service is infrequent. I am confused by your statement. Surely the plan is to put the trams on the section where there is the greatest demand in order to provide relief from overcrowding? I thought it was understood that the Wimbledon line suffers some of the worst overcrowding so it makes sense to add service there even if only on part of the route. The single track sections are a bigger and more costly problem to solve. What part of Tramlink has no service that, in your view, should have a service? I am not aware that any part of the Tramlink network has an infrequent service. Frequencies have been bolstered twice since TfL took direct control of the service and the service has never really been that infrequent - especially if you look at some of the rail services on branches in and around South London. A number of them are no better than every 30 minutes off peak although overlap sections do better. Before the tramlink was introduced there was a bus 726 between Bromley and Croydon, the first bus on Sunday Morning leaving Bromley at 6.00. If you have a look at the Tramlink timetable you will find the first tram doesn't leave from Beckenham Junction until 07:20. Bus 119 runs half-hourly all night, the 05:59 is timetabled at 25 minutes from Bromley South to East Croydon. It all depends on the point in Bromley you travel from. I would need to walk over a mile in the wrong direction to pick up a 119 and it is too risky. It does a grand tour of Hayes and West Wickam and finally has great difficulty in entering Bromley at the southern end But compared with the 367 one might think the route straightforward. The laugh is that when they withdrew the bus service, instead of providing any useful information, they put notices in the timetable windows along the route saying "Your services are improving" Transport services are planned by people in suits who drive cars, but want to use the train service (or something that goes on rails) for their commute to work, but use cars for weekend leisure activities. They can't relate to anyone using public transport at weekends and take them to be destitutes or losers with no money but infinite amounts of time, and who deserve to be punished and humiliated. Now try a bus service outside London (where, to be fair, many of the passengers are indeed ....) Now instead of making unsubstantiated rants perhaps you can answer the questions I posed? Referring to a bus route that is long dead is of no relevance to Tramlink where you said there were places where there was no service on the Tramlink network. Ranting about weekend service levels and the alleged motivations of transport planners is not helpful. Please explain the allegations you made about Tramlink rather than just going on a whinge about public transport. If you live in London you are far, far better off than many places where they're lucky to a single bus on a Sunday never mind one at 0600! 00:20 - 07:20 The tram link was used as an excuse for cutting out 726 (and 54 but I didn't personally use that) and in my view is very relevant. Tramlink opened 2000, the 726 was cut back in April 2005 (according to Wikipedia, and it must have been about then as I used it after coming to London in late 2000). The 726 was killed off in stages. The link between Bromley and Croydon was cut after Tramlink opened. Tramlink doesn't go central Bromley (it would nice if it did, but difficult to arrange; Croydon to Bromley is one of those trips that seems slower/more awkward than might be expected). There is no direct bus service from Bromley to Croydon AIUI the problem was that the 726 timings were horribly unreliable by the time it reached Sutton, never mind Kingston, and it only ran hourly. This made it a bit dodgy to use for getting to to the airport and only much use for other trips if you had a lot of time on your hands. It also stopped everywhere, so people going one stop slowed it down even more. The bus was originally premised on premium fare. That was abolished leading to the difficulties in keeping to timetable. In any event that was in my opinion never the main problem. The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar surroundings, it was very confusing. Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable waiting about in Dingwall Rd. The frustrated passenger would stand outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past. Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations, but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an informed choice between tram or bus. So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00, they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether it was running late and would appear any moment. That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services are improving". It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. You comments about other places are not germane to the issue. My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day. Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether.... They should at least start the tram service from the time the replaced bus service started, to give some honesty to the statement that services are improving. What I would really have liked to see was a train running from Orpington via Birkbeck and Norwood Junction. Don't tell me, there is 27 chains of missing rail. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 20/08/2011 22:46, Paul Corfield wrote:
The only bus service that was really affected by Tramlink was the 54 which was explicity reduced in scope because the Tram provided the onward link. The 130 was also affected. Instead of a double-decker every 5 minutes or so from West Croydon to New Addington it is now a single-decker from Norwood Junction to New Addington, every 15-20 minutes. -- John Ray |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote:
The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station As in the bus station? bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar surroundings, it was very confusing. I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat limited. There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't know the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has lots of maps and signs to help. Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable waiting about in Dingwall Rd. If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands where no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they have been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not even as if there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at night plenty of times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any trouble; it's right the other side of the town centre from where people spend their time incinerating furniture shops. (BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into a BNP rally!) The frustrated passenger would stand outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past. There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't affect arriving passengers. Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations, but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an informed choice between tram or bus. I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the trams. So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00, they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether it was running late and would appear any moment. Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London, so if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to wait for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident). That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services are improving". It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. You comments about other places are not germane to the issue. My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day. Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether.... They should at least start the tram service from the time the replaced bus service started, to give some honesty to the statement that services are improving. What I would really have liked to see was a train running from Orpington via Birkbeck and Norwood Junction. Don't tell me, there is 27 chains of missing rail. Tram-train would need more than just some new off-the-shelf trams. I did Wimbledon to West Croydon today (just because it was free). It was full to Ampere Way, then full and standing to Croydon. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:22:41 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote: AIUI the problem was that the 726 timings were horribly unreliable by the time it reached Sutton, never mind Kingston, and it only ran hourly. This made it a bit dodgy to use for getting to to the airport and only much use for other trips if you had a lot of time on your hands. It also stopped everywhere, so people going one stop slowed it down even more. [...] It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. From my westerly location I got the feeling that reliability improved dramatically when it went to Metrobus... am I being unfair? Perhaps it was cut back to Croydon on the same date. The doubling in frequency of the X26 was, as you'll know, more recent and a Boris-inspired trial of orbital express routes. I recall a report saying that it hadn't really proved the point but they'd keep the new frequency (to avoid the embarrassment of cutting it so soon?). Still, at the new frequency it seems very well-used. Ken's point elsewhere is a good one I think - it would have been a perfect route for early Countdown 1.0 installation. A pity that (your?) N213 had to suffer at around the same time. Let's see what Quality Line make of the X26, new Citaros on the way I think. On the point of tram conversions without through fares, having through fares between any bus routes on Oyster would, I think, address many people's complaints in what is clearly one of the best bus networks in the world. I'm not joking! But would people support the increase in fares that would be necessary? Richard. |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
In article , Arthur
Figgis writes On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote: The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station As in the bus station? There is a set of bus stops. It is not exactly a station in the sense that there is at West Croydon. bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar surroundings, it was very confusing. I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat limited. I'm not sure whether you've mis understood something, as you've put that opinion below my comment about looking for the 726 stop, which a person travelling from Bromley would not be doing. To try to clarify: Typically, a journey has an outward component and an inward component. Imagine a person from Bromley, Sidcup, Petts Wood or wherever travelling to Croydon for an onward destination to Gatwick, Brighton, Worthing etc. It is not part of my argument that the market is large, (though actually the trains can often be quite full) but rather I would argue that we travel to odd places at unsocial times from time to time, and a public transport has to address that requirement, otherwise people give up and get cars. In other words a public transport system means that some buses will run empty, or almost empty. It is the return journey where the person starts looking for the bus stop and can't find it. This could be at any time of the day. A person may be tempted to think it must stop somewhere and just make a run for it when they see the bus coming. It wouldn't occur to them to think that the bus doesn't stop there at all. There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't know the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has lots of maps and signs to help. Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable waiting about in Dingwall Rd. If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands where no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they have been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not even as if there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at night plenty of times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any trouble; it's right the other side of the town centre from where people spend their time incinerating furniture shops. (BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into a BNP rally!) It wasn't part of my argument that Bromley is safer than Croydon, or even that Croydon is unsafe. Merely that I felt people waiting about in Dingwall Rd might feel a bit vulnerable. You seem to be wanting to justify the indefensible - the bus passing the bus stand (or what you call a station) without stopping The frustrated passenger would stand outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past. There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't affect arriving passengers. As discussed above, I was thinking of people leaving the station and looking for the bus. Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations, but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an informed choice between tram or bus. I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the trams. What I meant was that there is no "bus do in 4 minutes" type of information, which there is for the trams, and which there is at many other bus stops of far less importance than East Croydon. I can't remember what they do at West Croydon. So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00, they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether it was running late and would appear any moment. But it isn't like any other bus stop, because most bus stops do provide that information. Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London, so if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to wait for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident). I have no idea what the 969 is but the 726 was only an hourly service at certain times of the day. That enabled them to kill a bus service whilst claiming "Your services are improving". It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. You comments about other places are not germane to the issue. My original point was that if they were getting some extra trams it would be useful to extend the service. I'd be willing to put up with a bit of overcrowding in the middle of the day. Perhaps they should relieve overcrowding during the day, and then bring back night services to places which have lost them altogether.... They should at least start the tram service from the time the replaced bus service started, to give some honesty to the statement that services are improving. What I would really have liked to see was a train running from Orpington via Birkbeck and Norwood Junction. Don't tell me, there is 27 chains of missing rail. Tram-train would need more than just some new off-the-shelf trams. I did Wimbledon to West Croydon today (just because it was free). It was full to Ampere Way, then full and standing to Croydon. -- Ken |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydon area
On Aug 22, 8:03*pm, Richard wrote:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:22:41 +0100, Arthur Figgis wrote: AIUI the problem was that the 726 timings were horribly unreliable by the time it reached Sutton, never mind Kingston, and it only ran hourly. This made it a bit dodgy to use for getting to to the airport and only much use for other trips if you had a lot of time on your hands. It also stopped everywhere, so people going one stop slowed it down even more. [...] It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. From my westerly location I got the feeling that reliability improved dramatically when it went to Metrobus... am I being unfair? *Perhaps it was cut back to Croydon on the same date. The doubling in frequency of the X26 was, as you'll know, more recent and a Boris-inspired trial of orbital express routes. *I recall a report saying that it hadn't really proved the point but they'd keep the new frequency (to avoid the embarrassment of cutting it so soon?). Still, at the new frequency it seems very well-used. *Ken's point elsewhere is a good one I think - it would have been a perfect route for early Countdown 1.0 installation. A pity that (your?) N213 had to suffer at around the same time. Let's see what Quality Line make of the X26, new Citaros on the way I think. On the point of tram conversions without through fares, having through fares between any bus routes on Oyster would, I think, address many people's complaints in what is clearly one of the best bus networks in the world. *I'm not joking! *But would people support the increase in fares that would be necessary? Richard. You mean bus fares being even more expensive compared with Underground than they already are? To get from most central pubs I am likely to be in to reasonably near home, starting after 1900, would cost me £1.90 LU and DLR £2.40 two buses Even during the peak, LU and DLR would be 10p more than two buses, and a helluva lot quicker. I don't think non-through bus pricing makes any sense. |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 22/08/2011 20:03, Richard wrote:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:22:41 +0100, Arthur Figgis wrote: AIUI the problem was that the 726 timings were horribly unreliable by the time it reached Sutton, never mind Kingston, and it only ran hourly. This made it a bit dodgy to use for getting to to the airport and only much use for other trips if you had a lot of time on your hands. It also stopped everywhere, so people going one stop slowed it down even more. [...] It did improve west of Croydon - doubled in frequency, chopped some stops. From my westerly location I got the feeling that reliability improved dramatically when it went to Metrobus... am I being unfair? Perhaps it was cut back to Croydon on the same date. The doubling in frequency of the X26 was, as you'll know, more recent and a Boris-inspired trial of orbital express routes. I recall a report saying that it hadn't really proved the point but they'd keep the new frequency (to avoid the embarrassment of cutting it so soon?). Still, at the new frequency it seems very well-used. Ken's point elsewhere is a good one I think - it would have been a perfect route for early Countdown 1.0 installation. IIRC the report said something to the effect that had they known what the passenger numbers would be then they wouldn't have bothered increasing it, but now they have bothered they wouldn't cut it back. A pity that (your?) N213 had to suffer at around the same time. Let's see what Quality Line make of the X26, new Citaros on the way I think. I noticed a pair of very shiny looking "not in service" buses the other day, and wondered if they were new vehicles on test or something. But I know nothing about buses, other than where to find the seats on the little 410 buses where I can sit facing forward. On the point of tram conversions without through fares, having through fares between any bus routes on Oyster would, I think, address many people's complaints in what is clearly one of the best bus networks in the world. I'm not joking! But would people support the increase in fares that would be necessary? Bus transfer tickets would be nice, but I can't see it happening because of the revenue implications. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Stadler's won the tender to provide six new trams for Croydonarea
On 22/08/2011 20:19, Ken wrote:
In article , Arthur Figgis writes On 21/08/2011 13:14, Ken wrote: The major rail station is east Croydon bus the bus station is at West Croydon. There is a bus terminal, of sorts, outside East Croydon station As in the bus station? There is a set of bus stops. It is not exactly a station in the sense that there is at West Croydon. No, but it would pass a duck test. West Croydon is palatial compared to some bus stations. Of course, were our hypothetical passenger to be arriving from Lewisham rather than Bromley, his No 75 bus would go sailing past West Croydon bus station on the wrong side of a nasty dual carriageway. Not even just round the corner like East Croydon railway station and Dingwall Road - which the 75 doesn't go to either. bus the 726 didn't use it. Instead, it stopped in Dingwall Road. If you know Croydon, it's not difficult to find, but for those in unfamiliar surroundings, it was very confusing. I can't help thinking the market for people who don't know Croydon but want to go there from Bromley at 6 in the morning must be somewhat limited. I'm not sure whether you've mis understood something, as you've put that opinion below my comment about looking for the 726 stop, which a person travelling from Bromley would not be doing. To try to clarify: Quite. So I don't see that there is a significant problem which could be rectified by redeploying trams. Typically, a journey has an outward component and an inward component. Imagine a person from Bromley, Sidcup, Petts Wood or wherever travelling to Croydon for an onward destination to Gatwick, Brighton, Worthing etc. It is not part of my argument that the market is large, (though actually the trains can often be quite full) but rather I would argue that we travel to odd places at unsocial times from time to time, and a public transport has to address that requirement, otherwise people give up and get cars. In other words a public transport system means that some buses will run empty, or almost empty. And for some journeys cars do make sense. It is the return journey where the person starts looking for the bus stop and can't find it. This could be at any time of the day. A person may be tempted to think it must stop somewhere and just make a run for it when they see the bus coming. It wouldn't occur to them to think that the bus doesn't stop there at all. Such a person is not going to be able to cope with public transport anyway (other than a taxi). How long might such a person spend at Bromley South waiting for a train to Gatwick before deciding to investigate whether that is actually a good idea? Or maybe they are stuck in Bognor, thinking it doesn't look like Brighton. Or their brain has exploded while trying to work out which portion of a train to be in at Haywards Heath. There are very few places where buses are easy to use if you don't know the area and don't check up where to go - at least London has lots of maps and signs to help. Moreover, I wouldn't call Croydon the safest of places and an ordinary person might feel rather vulnerable waiting about in Dingwall Rd. If they had spent their entire life on one of those remote islands where no-one bothers putting doors on their hovels, maybe. But if they have been in any UK city centre in recent years it's OK - it's not even as if there are any pubs round there. I've been there late at night plenty of times (until Boris Ate My Bus), and not seen any trouble; it's right the other side of the town centre from where people spend their time incinerating furniture shops. (BTW, the first time I went to Bromley I stepped out the station into a BNP rally!) It wasn't part of my argument that Bromley is safer than Croydon, or even that Croydon is unsafe. Merely that I felt people waiting about in Dingwall Rd might feel a bit vulnerable. You seem to be wanting to justify the indefensible - the bus passing the bus stand (or what you call a station) without stopping Which bus: the one which doesn't exist because it has been chopped back and become the X26, or the 119 which apparently doesn't count (and anyway does use the bus station in one direction, and stops opposite the station in the other)? And why would this person not get a tram, which is hard to avoid? I genuinely don't think the needs of unduly paranoid thick people travelling to unfamiliar places at unusual times should outweigh the needs of the masses trying to squeeze onto packed trams (I had to climb over people's stuff to get off on Sunday). If someone opens an Ikea at Birkbeck, then maybe we'll need to rethink. The frustrated passenger would stand outside East Croydon Station watching an empty 726 go roaring past. There was an issue with signage, but that got fixed. And it wouldn't affect arriving passengers. As discussed above, I was thinking of people leaving the station and looking for the bus. Furthermore, they didn't, and don't today, haven't any information concerning the whereabouts of buses at East Croydon. They have that information for the trams, and for the buses at many other locations, but not there. it makes it difficult for the passenger to make an informed choice between tram or bus. I'm sure there are maps on the west-bound bus stops on the bridge, at least. A sighted person would have to try pretty hard to not find the trams. What I meant was that there is no "bus do in 4 minutes" type of information, which there is for the trams, and which there is at many other bus stops of far less importance than East Croydon. I can't remember what they do at West Croydon. Paper timetables and maps. They have at least fixed the spelling of "Wadden" on one of the signs. If anything, a next bus display might confuse the unfamiliar user, as they might think that it had some link to a meaningful concept of reality (as the tram ones generally do, until things go tits-up). So assuming that the passenger could read the timetable through the dirty timetable pane, if they arrived at 12:15 for a bus due at 12:00, they would have no way of knowing whether they had missed it, or whether it was running late and would appear any moment. But it isn't like any other bus stop, because most bus stops do provide that information. Not in Croydon (or Sutton) they don't. There is pretty much always a timetable, often a map, but generally that's it. No whizzo real-time stuff Just like almost every other bus stop in the world. But it's London, so if they have missed it by 15 min they probably don't have long to wait for another one (no-one is going to be getting the 969 by accident). I have no idea what the 969 is but the 726 was only an hourly service at certain times of the day. 969 runs twice a week in each direction. The X26 (which replaced the 726 (west of Croydon)) is now half-hourly. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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