"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

I know that Epsom trains go beyond, but it's still (IMHO) a natural place to
end Oyster as it's an interchange station and London buses go there, which
they don't to Tattenham Corner (any longer). After all, Ewell is outside of
GL, but Oyster goes there?

Are Zones 7-9 about funding - maybe Surrey doesn't chip in?

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as now.
Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London in LT
ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were zonal
except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that zones have
been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they can't be used
to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they can fix some of
the anomalies that have historically paced stations in Zone 6 that really
should have been in 7 or 8!)

tim

"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as
now. Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London in
LT ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were
zonal except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that
zones have been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they
can't be used to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they
can fix some of the anomalies that have historically paced stations in
Zone 6 that really should have been in 7 or 8!)

But if that was the simple solution that you believe, then why did they have
to bring in "zone G" for c2c? Presumably because National Rail fares
to/from outside zone 6 on that line do NOT fit the 7-9 fares...

Paul S

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
"tim...." wrote in message
...

I don't see that it should need to. All that has to happen is that the
stations are put in whatever zone it is that keeps the fare the same as
now. Pre-Oyster the reason for not including stations outside of London
in LT ticketing was that there wasn't an appropriate fare, all fares were
zonal except for the special point to point fares on the Met. Now that
zones have been "created" for these Met stations I see no reason why they
can't be used to include other stations (and whilst they are at it they
can fix some of the anomalies that have historically paced stations in
Zone 6 that really should have been in 7 or 8!)

But if that was the simple solution that you believe, then why did they
have to bring in "zone G" for c2c? Presumably because National Rail fares
to/from outside zone 6 on that line do NOT fit the 7-9 fares...

Because Grays is a lot further outside of Zone 6 than Epsom is

tim

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...l-rail-map.pdf

Don't know how up to date it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a strange choice of stations outside of GL that are included.

Grays/Elstree/Epsom Downs in, Epsom/Dartford/Swanley not.

Given that there are Zones 7-9 for outside of GL it seems strange not to
use
them for the stations at the appropriate distance, at least for those
places
that the bus network extends to

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?

Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one wasn't?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a "tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge. Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?


Ewell West and Hampton Court are SWT

Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one wasn't?

But why were the Ewells included in zone 6?

--
Mark

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:59:53 +0100, Mark Bestley
wrote:

Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 01/09/2011 16:10, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message
o.uk...
On 31/08/2011 15:00, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message

....
On Aug 31, 11:16 am, Tristán
wrote:
If you're on the move, no smartphone or ipad to hand, and normally
no
staff anywhere, how does one know whether one will be charged a
"tube"
fair from an NR station or a rail fair?

There is a map here...

In the case of Epsom Downs (and Tattenham Corner) I think it could
have
been a case of tidying things up by bringing the whole of each
branch into
the zones, rather than having loose ends hanging out over the edge..
Epsom
itself is a slightly different situation, as there are non-London
ways in
and out (and if Epsom comes in, it's not far to Leatherhead. But
seeing as
the trains run through to Dorking, why not end there? And while we
are in
Dorking, there's not actually that many trains on the line to
Horsham, so
why not... and thus serious mission creep appears).


I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were
included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty
big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what
about
Sheperton?

An obvious difference is that Shepperton is SWT, while the others are
Southern - maybe Southern played decided to nice(r)?


Ewell West and Hampton Court are SWT

But Hampton Court is only just over the river from being inside Greater
London (less than 200m walk from the station entrance) and the Palace is a
large tourist attraction, so it makes sense for this terminus to be
included. I think that it got moved into zone 6 a lot earlier than many of
the other boundary stations, it may even have been before privatisation.


Tattenham Corner is just about walking distance to Epsom Downs, could
there be risk of skewing journey patterns if one was Oyster and one
wasn't?

But why were the Ewells included in zone 6?


That's a good question.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:50:42AM +0000, d wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.
No it isn't.

Your sarcasm detector is faulty.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

23.5 degrees of axial tilt is the reason for the season

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:17:58 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:50:42AM +0000, d wrote:
David Cantrell wrote:
It doesn't need simplifying. Oyster is the best of all possible worlds.
No it isn't.

Your sarcasm detector is faulty.

Yup. I've given it a good kick, hopefully that'll fix it

B2003

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 04:10:43PM +0100, tim.... wrote:

I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

It's not that they go just over the border, but that from those stations
you can only go into London.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

There is no one true indentation style,
But if there were K&R would be Its Prophets.
Peace be upon Their Holy Beards.

David Cantrell wrote:

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 04:10:43PM +0100, tim.... wrote:

I'm aware of why Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham were included,
though it still doesn't make sense. If this was about tidying up
terminating lines that go just over the boundary (and it's a pretty big
stretch to say that the TC and Caterham lines go *just* over) what about
Sheperton?

It's not that they go just over the border, but that from those stations
you can only go into London.

Not true for Ewell East and West - next station is Epsom also Upper
Warlingham.

I wonder if it is the stations are unmanned most of the day and the main
journeys are to London so Oyster forcing a touch in/out gets the NR TOC
more revenue?



--
Mark