Hello there,

Looking through the terms and conditions of TfL, it is still not quite
clear to me whether I have to swipe in with an Oyster card with a
subscription for a zone loaded on it if I stay in the same zone. Can
anyone point me to a (definite) source of information for that?

Regards,

Walter

On Sep 16, 7:02*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

I think you need to give a bit more detail as to where your journeys
will be and on what mode. *I am not sure that there is a definitive
guide anywhere in relation to season tickets as the wording is not
that clear. *In day to day practical terms what follows is what most
people do.

Ok, let me be slightly more specific (although you already went there
a bit): let's assume I have a season ticket and I stay within the
zones the ticket is valid for. Touching in on gated stations aside, on
which modes of transport within the zone do I not have to touch in
(which you answered mostly), and even more importantly where can I
find official communication about me not having to touch in.

Thanks for the reply, BTW.

Regards,

Walter

In message
,
Walter van Holst writes

and even more importantly where can I
find official communication about me not having to touch in.

I doubt that there is any such communication. The official guidance is
ALWAYS to touch in.
--
Paul Terry

On Sep 16, 7:52*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

and even more importantly where can I
find official communication about me not having to touch in.

I doubt that there is any such communication. The official guidance is
ALWAYS to touch in.

So I noticed. I am mostly looking for evidence that people not always
get fined for not touching in. This is relevant for similar schemes
elsewhere in Europe.

Regards,

Walter

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT), Walter van Holst
wrote:

On Sep 16, 7:52*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

and even more importantly where can I
find official communication about me not having to touch in.

I doubt that there is any such communication. The official guidance is
ALWAYS to touch in.

So I noticed. I am mostly looking for evidence that people not always
get fined for not touching in. This is relevant for similar schemes
elsewhere in Europe.

I think the usual fine would be for travelling with intent to avoid
payment of the fare. I suggest you check the by-laws to see if there
is a regulation requiring passengers to touch in and, if there is,
whether there is a penalty for non-compliance.

On Sep 17, 12:44*am, Paul Corfield wrote:
If such a rule existed then tens of thousands of people a day would be
in breach of the rule and TfL or the TOCs would face monumental
problems of enforcement and prosecution. The potential for severely
damaging press coverage and stakeholder complaint coupled with the
enforcement issue means no such rule or penalty is in place.

Actually, this is the case in the Netherlands right now (without the
press coverage yet): people with season tickets are being fined for
not touching in, despite the season ticket being valid for that area
and mode of transport.

I note the Dutch OV Chipkaart seems to be similar in concept to
London. I will be trying it out next week so will see how it compares
relative to the London system. *Checking in and out on trams and buses
*in vehicle" certainly seems to be different to London (assuming I've
understood the instructions properly!).

I'd like to hear about your experiences. So far I would prefer the
London system from the perspective of ease of use.

Regards,

Walter

On 16/09/2011 17:50, Walter van Holst wrote:
Hello there,

Looking through the terms and conditions of TfL, it is still not quite
clear to me whether I have to swipe in with an Oyster card with a
subscription for a zone loaded on it if I stay in the same zone. Can
anyone point me to a (definite) source of information for that?

Condition 6.6.1 of the TfL Conditions of Carriage:

"When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail services,
you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see clause
6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates
at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the yellow
card reader.

You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it
is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before
you use your Travelcard season ticket."

This is split into two separate conditions (3.5 and 3.6) in the Oyster
Conditions of Use on National Rail services.

Also appears as Condition 6.6.1 in the DLR Conditions of Carriage.

The Tramlink Conditions of Carriage, however, explicitly state that you
*don't* need to touch in if you've got a Season (Condition 6.1.3)
*unless* you're travelling to Wimbledon (as the Tramlink platform is
inside the NR/LU gateline).

Cheers,

Barry

https://groups.google.com/group/uk.t...d646b6aa?hl=en

"First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with
fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

""6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both
the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations
are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."""

On Sep 17, 1:05*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
On 16/09/2011 17:50, Walter van Holst wrote: Hello there,

Looking through the terms and conditions of TfL, it is still not quite
clear to me whether I have to swipe in with an Oyster card with a
subscription for a zone loaded on it if I stay in the same zone. Can
anyone point me to a (definite) source of information for that?

Condition 6.6.1 of the TfL Conditions of Carriage:

"When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail services,
you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see clause
6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates
at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the yellow
card reader.
.... snip...
Cheers,

Barry

Well that's not possible at Hayes & Harlington for those arriving from
Paddington on platform 1 (usually after 22.00 and early in the
morning) 'cos there isn't an Oyster validator there - and there never
will be one.

Currently - whilst the main foyer is closed for renovations - the
nearest validator is on platform 4, fully 10 minutes walk away, over
the road bridge, down a dark alleyway and across a fenced off car
park. Needless to say no-one bothers.

However someone 'in the know' - aka the station manager - told me that
there is a cut off for all Oysters at 22.00 after which if a 'touch'
out is not registered then no penalty is applied. Not sure how that
works or if this is actually true.

Mind you at that time the gates are wide open at Paddington so no-one
bothers to touch in anyway!!

CJB.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:34:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
....
The Dutch system appears to have gone somewhat
further than London in that every journey has to be logged in and out.
I guess this is because of the mileage based charging system which I
understand the operators wanted.

From colleagues there, it's more an impression of presumed dishonesty
inverting the old policy. The modal change in some Amsterdam stations
(e.g. Duivendrecht) - same platform, 2 co-sited validators (e.g
GVB-NS) to do an out-of-one into-the-other move strike me as
seriously badly thought out. The root problem there too is that it is
a common card shared across vested interests, each operator guarding
its own, no "leakage" or shared revenue.
...
I am genuinely surprised that "in zone" season ticket use attracts a
penalty in the Netherlands for non validation. Given that NS is
heavily promoting new forms of season ticket plus very affordable
national public transport add on tickets I am surprised that penalties
would be part of that deal! I understand, but may be wrong, that
Netherland Railways is not yet fully gated or even fully validator
equipped and that paper tickets can still be used freely.
Not.. not .. not fully gated?!! It's a mismatch of inconsistency (the
NS at least, the local metros are much better). Amsterdam CS: gated
all around the south & north entrances but permanently locked open.
Getting an early or late train? Staff will do a platform check if you
have touched in. Schiphol: open, no gates, validators on the platforms
strategically located far from the stairs (profit from peeps in a
hurry?) Rotterdam CS: no gates, validators near the entrances to the
ped tunnel and some platforms for transfers to/off international
trains (but woe is you if the train is replatformed to a no-val one,
got to leg it out to touch in or out and then climb back in). Den Haag
CS: hidden behind pillars for some platforms, no gates.

Buses and trams are good: for trams board where signed (A'dam at the
front [driver] or middle [immobile conductor], DH RR: board any door
cos they're more honest?!. For buses board and touch in at the front,
touch out and exit in the middle. But one forgets when tuned in
London-bus mode.

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