"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because a
FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the final
leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford ticket it's
possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

Not according to the NREs OJP - as I wrote earlier it is putting up the
'multiple tickets' warning for journeys via Cambridge.

How/where are you getting your info?

Paul S

On Sep 29, 1:25*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

An "Any Permitted" one would, versus a "Not London". The former is about
2 more expensive.

Excellent. If that is right, then the person in the ticket was quite
wrong and needlessly rude to me (not that being rude is ever needful
of course).

I apologise for lack of data. I am likely to do this journey
occasionally. I would like to be able to catch the first train back at
Shelford and so it would be useful to be able to go either via
Cambridge or via Tottenham Hale (and then catch the underground -
which I can pay for with my Oyster). Hence the desire for an option.

All journeys will be single day. This one was off-peak, but that won't
always be true.

Am I right in understanding that, in your view, an "Any Permitted"
ticket from Finsbury Park to Shelford would permit me to:

(1) board a train at FP to Cambridge
(2) change onto a Liverpool St bound train at Cambridge and then
alight at Shelford
(3) leave the network at Shelford, spend time there and then...
(4) either reverse the above route or...
(5) board a train to Liverpool Street from Shelford and then alight at
Tottenham Hale leaving there (the underground I can then handle).

I think that's what you are saying.


In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because
a FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the
final leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford
ticket it's possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

So the rail-only ticket needed is a FP-Shelford Any Permitted, but it's
entirely possible others are cheaper, partly because of throwing away
the Tottenham Hale onwards entitlement.

And we still don't know if this is a day trip or not, or Off-peak or not
(either of which might affect the result). Although U23* tickets are
only available as Day tickets, so that might be a clue.


My apologies. Today was spent doing the journey and associated
activity. For simplicity I did it entirely via Tottenham Hale so as to
avoid arguments.

opFrom: U23* LONDN
opTo: Shelford Cambs
opRoute: NOT LONDON
op
opI've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
opFinsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

I think the ticket is valid via Cambridge, because like the Finsbury
Park one it's the same price to either Cambridge or Shelford.

Ah, that makes sense. So, its also valid.


ps the Avantix code for U23* London is 0797.
pps I'm assuming that the U23* ticket allows use of the Underground to
Tottenham Hale, not sure where to look that one up though.

Underground is less worrying.

Francis

On Sep 29, 12:26*pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:

I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

Anyone her want to comment on this at all;'?...


I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

--
Tony Sayer

In message , at 17:00:06 on
Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Paul Scott remarked:
In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because a
FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the final
leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford ticket it's
possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

Not according to the NREs OJP - as I wrote earlier it is putting up the
'multiple tickets' warning for journeys via Cambridge.

Their algorithm/database doesn't seem to believe in the "Any Permitted"
ticket also being usable via Cambridge, that's the problem. It is
permitted for the reasons I explain below. FWIW the FCC ticket sales
site also doesn't offer the Any Permitted ticket via Cambridge.

How/where are you getting your info?

The [offpeak day return] fares from (an admittedly out of date) Avantix
CD, the routing from the Routing guide, with a Finsbury Park to Shelford
journey having routing points at Finsbury Park and either Cambridge or
Stansted.

Using the "fares rule" [Cambridge ticket doesn't cost more than the
Shelford one] I can opt for Cambridge as the routing point, which offers
up Map WA. (Finsbury Park to Stansted is routed only via London).

Map WA shows the two London lines up to Cambridge, so Shelford to
Finsbury Park has a mapped route via Cambridge.

Looking at the latest prices on the Eastcoast site (which is vastly
easier to understand than the NationalRail one):

Offpeak Day Return Finsbury Park to Cambridge £24.50 "Any Permitted".
Finsbury Park to Shelford £24.50 "Any Permitted"

Typical timetable for the latter northbound on the KGX line:

Finsbury Park 10:11 FC
Cambridge 11:29
Train terminates at Cambridge

Cambridge 11:51 LE
Shelford Cambs 11:56
Train continues to London Liverpool Street

Or northbound on the Liverpool St line:

London Underground from Finsbury Park to Tottenham Hale
Please check operating hours for this service

Tottenham Hale 11:11 LE
Shelford Cambs 12:14
Train continues to Cambridge
--
Roland Perry

In message
, at
12:40:56 on Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Francis Davey remarked:
An "Any Permitted" one would, versus a "Not London". The former is about
2 more expensive.

Excellent. If that is right, then the person in the ticket was quite
wrong and needlessly rude to me (not that being rude is ever needful
of course).

See my reply to Paul, but it's very confusing I agree. The price
differential has increased a little as well - the "Not London" offpeak
day returns via Hitchin are £20 (but aren't interavailable with the via
Tottenham Hale route, which is what the extra £4.50 is in effect paying
for). Another way of looking at it is to say the £24.50 ticket has the
bonus that you can return via Cambridge and Hitchin as well as the more
direct route.

I apologise for lack of data. I am likely to do this journey
occasionally. I would like to be able to catch the first train back at
Shelford and so it would be useful to be able to go either via
Cambridge or via Tottenham Hale (and then catch the underground -
which I can pay for with my Oyster). Hence the desire for an option.

Yes, I'm assuming you've lost interest in the U23 tickets, and will use
Oyster for the tube. The offpeak Day Return seems to have been deleted,
and the Anytime day return is now £30.90 to Shelford but a whopping £36
to Cambridge, so it fails the fares rule. The more expensive again
Offpeak period return also fails the fares rule (but only by 40p this
time).

All journeys will be single day. This one was off-peak, but that won't
always be true.

The price for Anytime "Any Permitted" tickets from Finsbury Park is
£33.70 for both Cambridge and Shelford (which we didn't necessarily
expect given the recent parting of the ways of the U23 tickets) so that
means the same interavailability logic applies.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Francis Davey wrote:
He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

That sounds totally crap.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

The routeing guide is itself almost incomprehensible, as well as being
inconsistent and incomplete.

My approach is to ask one member of railway staff and if I don't like
the answer to ask another.

--
Ian Jackson personal email:
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

On Sep 29, 9:12*pm, tony sayer wrote:
Anyone her want to comment on this at all;'?...





I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

--
Tony Sayer

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office. Looking at my out-of-date Avatix program, there are two fares
listed: Not London (ie via CBG) and +Any Permitted. The + symbol, of
course, allows cross-London transfer by Underground appropriate to the
journey being made, so AFAICT travelling via Tottenham Hale and the
Victoria Line is permitted.

Whoever the ticket seller is, though, he comes across as being either
incompetent or plain contemptuous of his customers and if I were the
OP, I would write a strongly-worded letter to the individual's
employer describing what happened.

"The Gardener" wrote in message
...

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office.

It's quite clearly Finsbury Park if reading the original post in uk.t.l

The reference to FGW is an error...

Paul S

On Oct 1, 1:57*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"The Gardener" wrote in message

...

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office.

It's quite clearly Finsbury Park if reading the original post in uk.t.l

The reference to FGW is an error...


It is. Mea culpa.

Francis