ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

I wondered if anyone can help me. I've just had a very unhelpful
discussion with a ticket vendor at Finsbury Park station, but i don't
entirely trust his response.

I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

I'll probably go via Cambridge, but coming back it looks like both
routes may be quickest depending on when I arrive at the station
(which is a random variable).

Last time I did this I was sold a ticket:

From: U23* LONDN
To: Shelford Cambs
Route: NOT LONDON

I've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
Finsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

Is that right? Is there any way I can do this (I don't mind having to
buy underground tickets as well if necessary)?

Your help would be greatly appreciated. If there is a website that
explains all this, I am happy to look there.

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"Francis Davey" wrote in message
...
I wondered if anyone can help me. I've just had a very unhelpful
discussion with a ticket vendor at Finsbury Park station, but i don't
entirely trust his response.

I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

I'll probably go via Cambridge, but coming back it looks like both
routes may be quickest depending on when I arrive at the station
(which is a random variable).

Last time I did this I was sold a ticket:

From: U23* LONDN
To: Shelford Cambs
Route: NOT LONDON

I've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
Finsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

Is that right? Is there any way I can do this (I don't mind having to
buy underground tickets as well if necessary)?

Your help would be greatly appreciated. If there is a website that
explains all this, I am happy to look there.

National Rail's online journey planner shows different fares for the two
routes, but more importantly explicitly states that you need buy multiple
(ie two) tickets for the journey via Cambridge - that strongly suggests that
the advice at FP is correct...

The U23* origin is an underground ticket, but AFAICS having bought it you
are constrained to the Victoria Line and a change at Tottenham Hale.

I think it is a route where once you've bought a ticket (or tickets) for one
route or the other you lose the other choice...

Paul

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message
, at
09:57:19 on Wed, 28 Sep 2011, Francis Davey remarked:
I wondered if anyone can help me. I've just had a very unhelpful
discussion with a ticket vendor at Finsbury Park station, but i don't
entirely trust his response.

I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

I'll probably go via Cambridge, but coming back it looks like both
routes may be quickest depending on when I arrive at the station
(which is a random variable).

If you know you are going in a loop, then you can buy a ticket from FP
to Cambridge; use the outbound half to Cambridge, then immediately use
the return half towards Liverpool St, but break your journey at
Shelford.

--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In cam.misc Francis Davey wrote:
I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

There's another one that's only slightly fruitcake:
Finsbury Park to Hertford North
walk to Hertford East
Hertford East to Broxbourne
Broxbourne to Shelford

I wonder what the routing would make of that?

Theo

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at 01:04:45 on Thu,
29 Sep 2011, Theo Markettos
remarked:
I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

There's another one that's only slightly fruitcake:
Finsbury Park to Hertford North
walk to Hertford East
Hertford East to Broxbourne
Broxbourne to Shelford

I wonder what the routing would make of that?

It depends on whether you are allowed to walk between Hertford North and
East.

The [only] map which applies to this journey is WA.

If the Hertford's comprised a Routing Point Group Station[1] that would
allow walking between them[2].

They aren't marked as a Non-Routing-Point Interchange (which appears in
the key of recent maps), which I presume would allow walking, but
neither is *anywhere* else, nor is that term evident anywhere else in
the literature.

So it's impossible to say that it's definitely allowed, but it could be
allowed and yet not obviously so from the literature.

[1] Glasgow is a good example of one of those (with a walk between
Central and Queen St figuring in many journeys). nb Despite being marked
as one on map WA, Broxbourne isn't in the list of such groups (whereas
Stansted and Tottenham Hale are).

[2] Plus there are special rules about cross-London trips, that I won't
go into here.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

If you know you are going in a loop, then you can buy a ticket from FP to
Cambridge; use the outbound half to Cambridge, then immediately use the
return half towards Liverpool St, but break your journey at Shelford.

But if you are then sold a normal Finsbury Park to Cambridge ticket, it
won't be valid coming back the other way, because it wouldn't include U23
validity?

....also, if the journey really is Shelford TO Finsbury Park as in the
subject line, that would require use of the outward portion twice...

Paul S

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at 10:23:42 on
Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Paul Scott remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

If you know you are going in a loop, then you can buy a ticket from
FP to Cambridge; use the outbound half to Cambridge, then immediately
use the return half towards Liverpool St, but break your journey at
Shelford.

But if you are then sold a normal Finsbury Park to Cambridge ticket, it
won't be valid coming back the other way, because it wouldn't include
U23 validity?

There are several tickets which could be bought (eg a Z U12 originating
one rather than Finsbury Park as such), but it looks like the cheapest
would be to buy the regular one, and pay the extra from Tottenham Hale
down to Finsbury Park.

...also, if the journey really is Shelford TO Finsbury Park as in the
subject line, that would require use of the outward portion twice...

It seemed clear to me that the journey in the title was the return leg.

eg "I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire)."
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

There are several tickets which could be bought (eg a Z U12 originating
one rather than Finsbury Park as such), but it looks like the cheapest
would be to buy the regular one, and pay the extra from Tottenham Hale
down to Finsbury Park.

But would a 'regular' (ie rail only) ticket from Finsbury Park to Cambridge
be valid on the WA route between Cambridge and Tottenham Hale at all?

Paul S

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
"Paul Scott" considered Wed, 28 Sep
2011 19:02:26 +0100 the perfect time to write:

"Francis Davey" wrote in message
...
I wondered if anyone can help me. I've just had a very unhelpful
discussion with a ticket vendor at Finsbury Park station, but i don't
entirely trust his response.

I'd like to travel from Finsbury Park to Shelford (Cambridgeshire).
There are two obvious routes: (1) train to Cambridge and then train to
Shelford; (2) Tube to Tottenham Hale and then train to Shelford.

I'll probably go via Cambridge, but coming back it looks like both
routes may be quickest depending on when I arrive at the station
(which is a random variable).

Last time I did this I was sold a ticket:

From: U23* LONDN
To: Shelford Cambs
Route: NOT LONDON

I've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
Finsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

Is that right? Is there any way I can do this (I don't mind having to
buy underground tickets as well if necessary)?

Your help would be greatly appreciated. If there is a website that
explains all this, I am happy to look there.

National Rail's online journey planner shows different fares for the two
routes, but more importantly explicitly states that you need buy multiple
(ie two) tickets for the journey via Cambridge - that strongly suggests
that
the advice at FP is correct...

The U23* origin is an underground ticket, but AFAICS having bought it you
are constrained to the Victoria Line and a change at Tottenham Hale.

I think it is a route where once you've bought a ticket (or tickets) for
one
route or the other you lose the other choice...

Paul

This has been a total mess for at least the last 25 years.
My wife's best friend, who was staying at her aunt's in Hoddesdon, was
made to route via Liverpool St, King's Cross and Royston to get to
Meldreth to meet my wife for our wedding where she was to be a
bridesmaid. Royston was being run as a sort of double ended terminus
in those days, as it was the limit of electrification, which made the
route via Cambridge both shorter and much quicker, and the one we had
worked out timetabling for (being by far the most obvious).
Obviously, this was pre-mobile phones, so we had no idea why she was
delayed, or any chance to give her any advice (she didn't know this
part of the country at all), so she was left completely at the mercy
of the numpty selling tickets at Hoddesdon.

If he'd had any sense at all, he'd have advised her to get 2 returns -
Hoddesdon - Cambridge and Cambridge - Meldreth, even if it wasn't
offered as a single ticket route.
I think they'd rather run empty trains, and have the potential
passengers drive instead.

I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at 11:12:18 on
Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Paul Scott remarked:
There are several tickets which could be bought (eg a Z U12
originating one rather than Finsbury Park as such), but it looks like
the cheapest would be to buy the regular one, and pay the extra from
Tottenham Hale down to Finsbury Park.

But would a 'regular' (ie rail only) ticket from Finsbury Park to
Cambridge be valid on the WA route between Cambridge and Tottenham Hale
at all?

An "Any Permitted" one would, versus a "Not London". The former is about
£2 more expensive.

In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because
a FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the
final leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford
ticket it's possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

So the rail-only ticket needed is a FP-Shelford Any Permitted, but it's
entirely possible others are cheaper, partly because of throwing away
the Tottenham Hale onwards entitlement.

And we still don't know if this is a day trip or not, or Off-peak or not
(either of which might affect the result). Although U23* tickets are
only available as Day tickets, so that might be a clue.

opFrom: U23* LONDN
opTo: Shelford Cambs
opRoute: NOT LONDON
op
opI've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
opFinsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

I think the ticket is valid via Cambridge, because like the Finsbury
Park one it's the same price to either Cambridge or Shelford.

ps the Avantix code for U23* London is 0797.
pps I'm assuming that the U23* ticket allows use of the Underground to
Tottenham Hale, not sure where to look that one up though.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because a
FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the final
leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford ticket it's
possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

Not according to the NREs OJP - as I wrote earlier it is putting up the
'multiple tickets' warning for journeys via Cambridge.

How/where are you getting your info?

Paul S

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Sep 29, 1:25*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

An "Any Permitted" one would, versus a "Not London". The former is about
2 more expensive.

Excellent. If that is right, then the person in the ticket was quite
wrong and needlessly rude to me (not that being rude is ever needful
of course).

I apologise for lack of data. I am likely to do this journey
occasionally. I would like to be able to catch the first train back at
Shelford and so it would be useful to be able to go either via
Cambridge or via Tottenham Hale (and then catch the underground -
which I can pay for with my Oyster). Hence the desire for an option.

All journeys will be single day. This one was off-peak, but that won't
always be true.

Am I right in understanding that, in your view, an "Any Permitted"
ticket from Finsbury Park to Shelford would permit me to:

(1) board a train at FP to Cambridge
(2) change onto a Liverpool St bound train at Cambridge and then
alight at Shelford
(3) leave the network at Shelford, spend time there and then...
(4) either reverse the above route or...
(5) board a train to Liverpool Street from Shelford and then alight at
Tottenham Hale leaving there (the underground I can then handle).

I think that's what you are saying.


In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because
a FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the
final leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford
ticket it's possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

So the rail-only ticket needed is a FP-Shelford Any Permitted, but it's
entirely possible others are cheaper, partly because of throwing away
the Tottenham Hale onwards entitlement.

And we still don't know if this is a day trip or not, or Off-peak or not
(either of which might affect the result). Although U23* tickets are
only available as Day tickets, so that might be a clue.


My apologies. Today was spent doing the journey and associated
activity. For simplicity I did it entirely via Tottenham Hale so as to
avoid arguments.

opFrom: U23* LONDN
opTo: Shelford Cambs
opRoute: NOT LONDON
op
opI've now been told this is wrong as it won't allow me to travel from
opFinsbury Park to Shelford via Cambridge.

I think the ticket is valid via Cambridge, because like the Finsbury
Park one it's the same price to either Cambridge or Shelford.

Ah, that makes sense. So, its also valid.


ps the Avantix code for U23* London is 0797.
pps I'm assuming that the U23* ticket allows use of the Underground to
Tottenham Hale, not sure where to look that one up though.

Underground is less worrying.

Francis

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Sep 29, 12:26*pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:

I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

Anyone her want to comment on this at all;'?...


I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

--
Tony Sayer

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at 17:00:06 on
Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Paul Scott remarked:
In fact, now I look closer, you don't need to do the BoJ trick, because a
FP-Shelford ticket is the same price as a FP-Cambridge one (ie the final
leg south is free). It also means that if you buy the Shelford ticket it's
possible to return via Cambridge as well as arrive that way.

Not according to the NREs OJP - as I wrote earlier it is putting up the
'multiple tickets' warning for journeys via Cambridge.

Their algorithm/database doesn't seem to believe in the "Any Permitted"
ticket also being usable via Cambridge, that's the problem. It is
permitted for the reasons I explain below. FWIW the FCC ticket sales
site also doesn't offer the Any Permitted ticket via Cambridge.

How/where are you getting your info?

The [offpeak day return] fares from (an admittedly out of date) Avantix
CD, the routing from the Routing guide, with a Finsbury Park to Shelford
journey having routing points at Finsbury Park and either Cambridge or
Stansted.

Using the "fares rule" [Cambridge ticket doesn't cost more than the
Shelford one] I can opt for Cambridge as the routing point, which offers
up Map WA. (Finsbury Park to Stansted is routed only via London).

Map WA shows the two London lines up to Cambridge, so Shelford to
Finsbury Park has a mapped route via Cambridge.

Looking at the latest prices on the Eastcoast site (which is vastly
easier to understand than the NationalRail one):

Offpeak Day Return Finsbury Park to Cambridge £24.50 "Any Permitted".
Finsbury Park to Shelford £24.50 "Any Permitted"

Typical timetable for the latter northbound on the KGX line:

Finsbury Park 10:11 FC
Cambridge 11:29
Train terminates at Cambridge

Cambridge 11:51 LE
Shelford Cambs 11:56
Train continues to London Liverpool Street

Or northbound on the Liverpool St line:

London Underground from Finsbury Park to Tottenham Hale
Please check operating hours for this service

Tottenham Hale 11:11 LE
Shelford Cambs 12:14
Train continues to Cambridge
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message
, at
12:40:56 on Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Francis Davey remarked:
An "Any Permitted" one would, versus a "Not London". The former is about
2 more expensive.

Excellent. If that is right, then the person in the ticket was quite
wrong and needlessly rude to me (not that being rude is ever needful
of course).

See my reply to Paul, but it's very confusing I agree. The price
differential has increased a little as well - the "Not London" offpeak
day returns via Hitchin are £20 (but aren't interavailable with the via
Tottenham Hale route, which is what the extra £4.50 is in effect paying
for). Another way of looking at it is to say the £24.50 ticket has the
bonus that you can return via Cambridge and Hitchin as well as the more
direct route.

I apologise for lack of data. I am likely to do this journey
occasionally. I would like to be able to catch the first train back at
Shelford and so it would be useful to be able to go either via
Cambridge or via Tottenham Hale (and then catch the underground -
which I can pay for with my Oyster). Hence the desire for an option.

Yes, I'm assuming you've lost interest in the U23 tickets, and will use
Oyster for the tube. The offpeak Day Return seems to have been deleted,
and the Anytime day return is now £30.90 to Shelford but a whopping £36
to Cambridge, so it fails the fares rule. The more expensive again
Offpeak period return also fails the fares rule (but only by 40p this
time).

All journeys will be single day. This one was off-peak, but that won't
always be true.

The price for Anytime "Any Permitted" tickets from Finsbury Park is
£33.70 for both Cambridge and Shelford (which we didn't necessarily
expect given the recent parting of the ways of the U23 tickets) so that
means the same interavailability logic applies.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In article ,
Francis Davey wrote:
He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

That sounds totally crap.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

The routeing guide is itself almost incomprehensible, as well as being
inconsistent and incomplete.

My approach is to ask one member of railway staff and if I don't like
the answer to ask another.

--
Ian Jackson personal email:
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Sep 29, 9:12*pm, tony sayer wrote:
Anyone her want to comment on this at all;'?...





I can't make up my mind whether some of these problems stem from the person
in the ticket office, the local manager or the TOC. * Experience with a
range for FGW offices tends to suggest a localised problem rather than the
TOC because I've had some (one in particular) refuse to sell valid
combinations where others might grumble at the amount of work but do as
requested. * The one that refuses to sell certain things has been doing it
since Thames Trains days and the staff in the office haven't changed much so
I'm guessing it's totally localised. * I did complain on one occasion and
things improved for a while but a recent incident shows they are back to
their old, bad, ways again.

In this case the person acted rather oddly towards me when I explained
what I wanted (using the same language I had on previous successful
occasions). Part of the problem was that he "explained" to me why it
was impossible to get a ticket to do what I wanted on a number of
obviously incorrect bases. Since previous ticket sellers have sold me
tickets that they thought would work, and since he was obviously
reasoning incorrectly, I wasn't immediately convinced. He also began
by saying he "didn't know" but only became categorical later.

For example: he explained that if I bought a ticket via Cambridge that
would be using FGW trains and the money would go "into their pot"
whereas a ticket via Tottenham Hale would be a different train
company. As a result I couldn't buy a ticket that went over both.

This was so breathtakingly wrong I didn't really know how to react - I
mean pretty much anyone who travels at all by trains knows you can get
tickets that use more than one company, eg (I hadn't realised this at
the time) FP = Shelford via Cambridge.

He implied that I could have a ticket and risk what National Express
would say (i.e. whether they would accept it) and didn't seem to think
it was his job to help me find a suitable ticket.

He was quite cross with me by the end. I asked for a complaint form
and that made him crosser. He called me back and asked me how I needed
a complaint and then harangued me a bit. Eventually I had to break it
off and go. Really good not customer service.

Thanks for the help. I tried reading the routing guide for the first
time last night. Hmmmm. Its not the easiest work to absorb and I'm not
sure how the underground fits in. I wish there was someone you could
ask (I thought this was the train staff).

Francis

--
Tony Sayer

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office. Looking at my out-of-date Avatix program, there are two fares
listed: Not London (ie via CBG) and +Any Permitted. The + symbol, of
course, allows cross-London transfer by Underground appropriate to the
journey being made, so AFAICT travelling via Tottenham Hale and the
Victoria Line is permitted.

Whoever the ticket seller is, though, he comes across as being either
incompetent or plain contemptuous of his customers and if I were the
OP, I would write a strongly-worded letter to the individual's
employer describing what happened.

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

"The Gardener" wrote in message
...

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office.

It's quite clearly Finsbury Park if reading the original post in uk.t.l

The reference to FGW is an error...

Paul S

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Oct 1, 1:57*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"The Gardener" wrote in message

...

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office.

It's quite clearly Finsbury Park if reading the original post in uk.t.l

The reference to FGW is an error...


It is. Mea culpa.

Francis

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Sep 30, 5:54*pm, Ian Jackson
wrote:

My approach is to ask one member of railway staff and if I don't like
the answer to ask another.

Right. Not so easy at Finsbury Park (there's two guys who are usually
there when I go and mine got the other one involved when I asked for a
claim form - he said that he could be a witness that he - the first
guy - hadn't been rude so I'm not entirely relaxed about either).

I can go into KX though. Lots of people there to chose from.

It would be nice if there were a sort of back-stop "we really
understand fares" place you could call or go to or somehow contact. I
wouldn't mind paying extra either. I'm happy that doing more complex
things will require a bit more effort. I just need to know how to
apply that effort and where to look.

Francis

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Sep 30, 9:11*pm, The Gardener wrote:

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office. Looking at my out-of-date Avatix program, there are two fares
listed: Not London (ie via CBG) and +Any Permitted. The + symbol, of
course, allows cross-London transfer by Underground appropriate to the
journey being made, so AFAICT travelling via Tottenham Hale and the
Victoria Line is permitted.

What I wasn't sure about is if + allows you to start (or end) at an
underground station. Ie. for the last leg of the journey to be made by
underground (at least in theory - of course I'd probably just use my
oyster for this bit).

How does one deduce that the Victoria Line is "permitted"?

Am I right in thinking that because there's a ticket via CBG it must
be "Any Permitted"?


Whoever the ticket seller is, though, he comes across as being either
incompetent or plain contemptuous of his customers and if I were the
OP, I would write a strongly-worded letter to the individual's
employer describing what happened.

I may well do that if I can summon up the energy. I have their name -
I forgot to get it so my wife went back and asked the other guy (to
avoid further conflict). He told her "its written on his name badge"
but was eventually persuaded to give the guy's name which was much
shorter. My wife deals a lot with customer service employees so she
was deeply unimpressed by it.

Thanks for all this useful information. At some point I might brave
trying to buy a ticket that does the job. I have a new part-time job
that may mean I go to Shelford a few times a month by train, so this
is all potentially very useful. Sometimes those journeys might have to
be via a break in Cambridge, but that's just me being awkward :-).

Francis

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message
, at
15:40:42 on Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Francis Davey remarked:
What I wasn't sure about is if + allows you to start (or end) at an
underground station. Ie. for the last leg of the journey to be made by
underground (at least in theory - of course I'd probably just use my
oyster for this bit).

How does one deduce that the Victoria Line is "permitted"?

This was explained in the old "Part A" of the Fares Manual, not to be
confused with Section A of the Routing Guide!

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-...routeing-guide

The old Part A is also not supplied with the CD-ROM "Avantix Traveller"
available for a tenner from HMSO. I've not found any evidence that it's
online at all at the moment, but presumably ticket sellers have access
to it in some form. The friendliest ticket seller I found was the one at
Meldreth station (but be quick, there are plans to turn it, and many
similar, into unmanned stations).

Anyway, here's an extract from Part A of Jan 2008 (NFM98 for the geeks)
which was the last published in that form online, afaict.

"Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol + include the cost of
transfer across London by London Underground, DLR or First
Capital Connect train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets
displaying the ’cross-London’ marker â€*, are valid for travel
between any two of the following stations appropriate to the
route of the through rail journey being made.

Aldgate Finsbury Park Queens Park
Amersham Greenwich Richmond
Baker Street Highbury & Islington Seven Sisters
Balham Kensington Olympia Southwark
Bank Kentish Town Stratford
Barking King’s Cross/St Tottenham Hale
Pancras
Blackfriars Lancaster Gate Tower Hill
Blackhorse Road Lewisham Upminster
Cannon Street Limehouse Vauxhall
Charing Cross Liverpool Street Victoria
Ealing Broadway London Bridge Walthamstow Ctl
Edgware Road Marylebone Waterloo
Elephant & Castle Moorgate West Brompton
Embankment New Cross Gate West Ham
Euston Old Street West Hampstead
Euston Square Paddington Wimbledon
Farringdon

Am I right in thinking that because there's a ticket via CBG it must
be "Any Permitted"?

There are two options from Finsbury Park to Cambridge: +London[1] and
Not-London. Any Permitted just means you can use either/both. The "Not
London" is also sold separately, of course.

[1] Where the + means "including underground transfers.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Roland Perry)
came up to me and whispered:

There are two options from Finsbury Park to Cambridge: +London[1]
and
Not-London.

You could always use the CLive Feather Discount, and buy a ticket from
Finsbury Park to London Stations...

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at
11:27:00 on Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Paul Cummins
remarked:
There are two options from Finsbury Park to Cambridge: +London[1] and
Not-London.

You could always use the CLive Feather Discount, and buy a ticket from
Finsbury Park to London Stations...

That was an alleged bug in the v1.0 routing guide.

Today's routing guide says the only map to use for such a ticket is EE
(initially I suppose it may have said WA[1]), which reveals just two
mapped routes (which are also direct trains, so the map isn't adding
anything) to Kings Cross and Moorgate.

[1] You can understand how that might have happened, WA is in other
respects a much more logical map to choose than what's in effect
"secondary ways to get from London to the North East".
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Oct 2, 8:33Â*am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
15:40:42 on Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Francis Davey remarked:

What I wasn't sure about is if + allows you to start (or end) at an
underground station. Ie. for the last leg of the journey to be made by
underground (at least in theory - of course I'd probably just use my
oyster for this bit).

How does one deduce that the Victoria Line is "permitted"?

This was explained in the old "Part A" of the Fares Manual, not to be
confused with Section A of the Routing Guide!

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-...routeing-guide

The old Part A is also not supplied with the CD-ROM "Avantix Traveller"
available for a tenner from HMSO. I've not found any evidence that it's
online at all at the moment, but presumably ticket sellers have access
to it in some form. The friendliest ticket seller I found was the one at
Meldreth station (but be quick, there are plans to turn it, and many
similar, into unmanned stations).

Going OT, FCC have been quoted in the local rag that they do not
intend to follow McNulty's recommendation regarding destaffing
stations. Four stations on the GN line had been proposed for
destaffing, namely Arlesey, Sandy, Ashwell and Morden and Meldreth.


Anyway, here's an extract from Part A of Jan 2008 (NFM98 for the geeks)
which was the last published in that form online, afaict.

"Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol + include the cost of
transfer across London by London Underground, DLR or First
Capital Connect train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets
displaying the ’cross-London’ marker â€*, are valid for travel
between any two of the following stations appropriate to the
route of the through rail journey being made.

Â*Aldgate Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Finsbury Park Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Queens Park
Â*Amersham Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Greenwich Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Richmond
Â*Baker Street Â* Â* Â* Â* Highbury & Islington Â* Â* Â*Seven Sisters
Â*Balham Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Kensington Olympia Â* Â* Â* Â*Southwark
Â*Bank Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Kentish Town Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Stratford
Â*Barking Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*King’s Cross/St Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Tottenham Hale
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Pancras
Â*Blackfriars Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Lancaster Gate Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Tower Hill
Â*Blackhorse Road Â* Â* Â*Lewisham Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Upminster
Â*Cannon Street Â* Â* Â* Â*Limehouse Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Vauxhall
Â*Charing Cross Â* Â* Â* Â*Liverpool Street Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Victoria
Â*Ealing Broadway Â* Â* Â*London Bridge Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Walthamstow Ctl
Â*Edgware Road Â* Â* Â* Â* Marylebone Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Waterloo
Â*Elephant & Castle Â* Â*Moorgate Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*West Brompton
Â*Embankment Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* New Cross Gate Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*West Ham
Â*Euston Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Old Street Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*West Hampstead
Â*Euston Square Â* Â* Â* Â*Paddington Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*Wimbledon
Â*Farringdon

Am I right in thinking that because there's a ticket via CBG it must
be "Any Permitted"?

There are two options from Finsbury Park to Cambridge: +London[1] and
Not-London. Any Permitted just means you can use either/both. The "Not
London" is also sold separately, of course.

[1] Where the + means "including underground transfers.
--
Roland Perry

Thanks for finding the reference. I have an old paper NFM which I have
kept for historical interest, which was my original source of info.

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On Oct 2, 8:33*am, Roland Perry wrote:
Anyway, here's an extract from Part A of Jan 2008 (NFM98 for the geeks)
which was the last published in that form online, afaict.
It seems the current version of this information is at
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...elling_connect

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message
, at
07:59:23 on Sun, 2 Oct 2011, "John @ home"
remarked:
Anyway, here's an extract from Part A of Jan 2008 (NFM98 for the geeks)
which was the last published in that form online, afaict.
It seems the current version of this information is at
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...elling_connect

Hurrah! Thanks for finding that.

And it's written in a reasonably accessible style as well. The later
part about "London Terminals" is even better.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Roland Perry)
came up to me and whispered:

Today's routing guide says the only map to use for such a ticket is
EE (initially I suppose it may have said WA[1]), which reveals just
two mapped routes (which are also direct trains, so the map isn't
adding anything) to Kings Cross and Moorgate.

So how does one get to Liverpool Street?

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at
16:43:00 on Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Paul Cummins
remarked:
Today's routing guide says the only map to use for such a ticket is
EE (initially I suppose it may have said WA[1]), which reveals just
two mapped routes (which are also direct trains, so the map isn't
adding anything) to Kings Cross and Moorgate.

So how does one get to Liverpool Street?

On a Finsbury Park to London Terminals ticket? Not at all, I presume.
(Other than "Moorgate and walk a hundred yards")

See the quite good wording signposted earlier:

"Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London
Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a
specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to more
than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any
reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National
Rail services. For example, a ticket from Brighton to London
Terminals is valid to Victoria, Waterloo (changing at Clapham
Junction), London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink or
Charing Cross Waterloo East or Cannon Street (changing at London
Bridge). It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or
Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would
involve crossing London using another mode of transport."

--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

On 01/10/2011 13:57, Paul Scott wrote:
"The Gardener" wrote in message
...

It's not clear at which station the OP is trying to buy a ticket but I
guess, from the references to FGW, that it must be an FGW ticket
office.

It's quite clearly Finsbury Park if reading the original post in uk.t.l

The reference to FGW is an error...

Paul S

Possibly he meant First Capital Connect, which is hardly fair on FGW.

--
Moving things in still pictures

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Roland Perry)
came up to me and whispered:

This is because the ticket is valid to more
than one London Terminal station provided it_s on any
reasonable line of route.

There is no reasonable route between Finsbury Park and Liverpool Street
via National Rail that doesn;t go via Cambridge.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message , at
21:51:00 on Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Paul Cummins
remarked:
This is because the ticket is valid to more
than one London Terminal station provided it_s on any
reasonable line of route.

There is no reasonable route between Finsbury Park and Liverpool Street
via National Rail that doesn;t go via Cambridge.

A ticket to London Terminals doesn't give you carte blanche to travel to
*any* of them you choose, as the explanation I posted earlier makes
clear.

You could always go via Highbury and Islington, then Goblin to
Stratford, as a more reasonable route than via Cambridge; but it's not
allowed either.
--
Roland Perry

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

We were about to embark at Dover, when (Roland Perry)
came up to me and whispered:

A ticket to London Terminals doesn't give you carte blanche to
travel to *any* of them you choose, as the explanation I posted
earlier makes clear.

But starting at Finsbury Park to go to Liverpool Street is reasonable,
where starting at Brighton to go to Paddington is not.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---- If it's below this line, I didn't write it ----

ticket from Shelford to Finsbury Park
 

In message n, at
03:17:00 on Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Paul Cummins
remarked:
A ticket to London Terminals doesn't give you carte blanche to
travel to *any* of them you choose, as the explanation I posted
earlier makes clear.

But starting at Finsbury Park to go to Liverpool Street is reasonable,

Yes, but not if attempting to travel exclusively by National Rail
trains, which is what makes it unreasonable.

where starting at Brighton to go to Paddington is not.

So buy the correct ticket (Finsbury Park to Zone U12*), not one that
doesn't permit it.

ps As it happens, that ticket is the same price as the London Terminals
one, so the Moorgate-Liverpool St leg on the tube is effectively free,
compared to the closest you can get using the London Terminals ticket.
--
Roland Perry