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"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
This is the first meeting of our new season.
IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, 1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) – see the pub’s website at www.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. The meeting begins at 19.00, and book sales are available from 18.30. We hope to see you on Thursday. .................................................. ....... .................................................. ....... John Burke IRRS - London |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
burkey wrote:
This is the first meeting of our new season. IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, 1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) – see the pub’s website at www.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
"Bruce" wrote in message
burkey wrote: This is the first meeting of our new season. IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, 1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) - see the pub's website at www.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 "Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? I wonder how much was paid for by the EU? |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 17/10/2011 11:33, Bruce wrote:
wrote: This is the first meeting of our new season. IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, 1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) – see the pub’s website at www.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? Did Ireland pay for it? Though the alternative to serious modernisation was probably some kind of O'Serpell. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On Oct 17, 11:33*am, Bruce wrote:
And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt?- Hide quoted text - Perhaps Transport for Scotland have been giving them a few pointers? -- gordon |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
In article ,
Arthur Figgis wrote: On 17/10/2011 11:33, Bruce wrote: wrote: Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? Did Ireland pay for it? Though the alternative to serious modernisation was probably some kind of O'Serpell. What they need is some kind of generous O'Polson ... Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
"Recliner" wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message burkey wrote: This is the first meeting of our new season. IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, 1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) - see the pub's website at www.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 "Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? I wonder how much was paid for by the EU? None of it, I expect. But a significant proportion of the cost was probably paid by the taxpayers of EU countries. |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 17/10/11 21:22, Bruce wrote:
None of it, I expect. But a significant proportion of the cost was probably paid by the taxpayers of EU countries. Here he goes again. It seems that Mr Polson is funding Ireland as well as Scotland. Well, we saw him first. Ian |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 17/10/2011 19:38, Nick Leverton wrote:
In articlesrWdnbHMmZVSwAHTnZ2dnUVZ8sCdnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk, Arthur wrote: On 17/10/2011 11:33, Bruce wrote: wrote: Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? Did Ireland pay for it? Though the alternative to serious modernisation was probably some kind of O'Serpell. What they need is some kind of generous O'Polson ... While MU-isation, commuter services, Luas and similar things probably made sense - viewed in terms of "modern European country" rather than "place to go on holiday trainspotting" - having done the Limerick to Galway line last year I had to wonder if it was really a sensible use of money. Anyone know how it is performing - does it perhaps have commuter traffic which I would have seen over Easter? And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all. How has, say, Greece got on in the same period? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On Oct 17, 10:54*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote: [...] While MU-isation, commuter services, Luas and similar things probably made sense - viewed in terms of "modern European country" rather than "place to go on holiday trainspotting" - having done the Limerick to Galway line last year I had to wonder if it was really a sensible use of money. Anyone know how it is performing - does it perhaps have commuter traffic which I would have seen over Easter? And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all. How has, say, Greece got on in the same period? Ireland (RO thereof) now has a fairly extensive motorway network, something that hardly existed a couple of decades ago, so it's not a case of EU transport dosh just ending up with the railways. Greece might have got on better if, well, it had managed itself a bit better. The Irish seemed to know how to play the game a bit better (though the initially impressive Celtic tiger got caught up inflating itself beyond all reasonable proportions during the boom, of course). |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
Mizter T wrote:
Greece might have got on better if, well, it had managed itself a bit better. The Irish seemed to know how to play the game a bit better (though the initially impressive Celtic tiger got caught up inflating itself beyond all reasonable proportions during the boom, of course). Both Ireland and Greece fell into the same trap. Exactly the same trap. Cheap borrowing fuelled an unsustainable boom that was founded on ... well, nothing. Britain also fell into the same trap, but we appear better able to escape because our currency devalued by more than a quarter. Ireland and Greece don't have that luxury, being stuck in the Euro. In terms of debt, thanks to Gordon Brown, Britain is actually more indebted than Greece. |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On Oct 16, 11:35*pm, burkey wrote:
This is the first meeting of our new season. IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, *1 Starcross Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) – see the pub’s website atwww.exmouth-arms.co.uk. The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail. Thursday 20th October 2011 *“Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. The meeting begins at 19.00, and book sales are available from 18.30. We hope to see you on Thursday. .................................................. ...... .................................................. ...... John Burke IRRS - London If Oliver Doyle is half as good as he was for the RSA on our visit to the west of Ireland in 2008 you are in for an entertaining and educational evening. He gave a most erudite and articulate talk on IE well illustrated with his own photographs as well as arranging visits to railway installations such as the Athlone level crossing control centre. Great stuff! Regards Chris Turnbull |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
For the benefit of those living within easy reach of Birmingham,
Oliver Doyle is giving his talk TOMORROW to the Midlands section of the Railway Study Association: Wednesday 19 October at 1800 in the Mailbox, non-members welcome. "In what became known as the era of the Celtic Tiger, the economy of the Republic of Ireland grew at an extraordinary rate. Its cities and towns developed fast, and the railway network was asked to play a major part in meeting the needs of growth, especially in the Dublin region. Oliver Doyle took part in its response. He is, as those who have heard him before will confirm, an excellent speaker, and this will be a most interesting and informative presentation." Chris Turnbull wrote: If Oliver Doyle is half as good as he was for the RSA on our visit to the west of Ireland in 2008 you are in for an entertaining and educational evening. He gave a most erudite and articulate talk on IE well illustrated with his own photographs as well as arranging visits to railway installations such as the Athlone level crossing control centre. Great stuff! I have also heard him speak before and was very impressed. Cheers, John |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
In uk.railway Arthur Figgis wrote:
And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all. How has, say, Greece got on in the same period? Greece has got: Double track electrified main line on about 2/3 of main N-S axis (up to about 160km/h due to all the mountains) - previously severely speed restricted twisty single line with no upgrades since 1950s. Electrified routes in Macedonia Athens suburban railway network (didn't exist before) and interchanges with N/S and E/W axis routes Athens tram Athens metro extensions, including new link to new airport Thessaloniki tram Major renewals of metre gauge network in Pelopponnese and isolated network near Messolonghi ~50% stock renewal Opening of new Greece/Turkey passenger service New high speed (as much as the geography will allow) route Athens-Patras under construction But of course OSE was haemorraging cash... partly because fares have historically be heavily state subsidised (the train being a social service the way that British rural buses are, Greek buses being semi-commercial operations). So the short term cost slashing has been to close the entire metre gauge network (including the bit near Messolonghi that never saw a train) leaving new trains and track to the mercy of metal thieves. Severe service cuts including all international trains, a number of standard gauge routes closed. After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it opened). THeo |
Modernization of OSE (was: "Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.)
In misc.transport.rail.europe Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
That Greece /got/ a lot, is out of question. Like those Hellas-Sprinter locomotives on the yard tracks, which were bought for several millions per piece, and never saw any service in the last 10 years, for lack of ability to complete the electrification. So it makes more sense to ask about /results/. Indeed, there are plenty of other examples, and yet more happening today in the name of 'austerity'... just look at the pictures of trashed new stock he http://www.amnizia.com/site/index.ph...71&It emid=73 In terms of bang per buck it's probably fairly dire. But merely listing the number of bangs is instructive in realising the amount that /was/ achieved (and the EU mostly paid for). Theo |
Modernization of OSE (was: "Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.)
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
That Greece /got/ a lot, is out of question. Like those Hellas-Sprinter locomotives on the yard tracks, which were bought for several millions per piece, and never saw any service in the last 10 years, for lack of ability to complete the electrification. So it makes more sense to ask about /results/. I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there are too many people who believe that spending is an end in itself, when what matters is how well that money is spent, and what return it provides. In the UK, we had 13 years of a Labour government that valued spending above all else, but paid very little attention to what that spending actually achieved. They proudly published figures for their huge increases in public spending; meanwhile, it was mostly difficult to see just what value this spending had delivered, apart from a debt that is worse than that of Greece. So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or nothing has been achieved. |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 19/10/2011 12:44, Theo Markettos wrote:
In uk.railway Arthur wrote: And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all. How has, say, Greece got on in the same period? Greece has got: Double track electrified main line on about 2/3 of main N-S axis (up to about 160km/h due to all the mountains) - previously severely speed restricted twisty single line with no upgrades since 1950s. Electrified routes in Macedonia Athens suburban railway network (didn't exist before) and interchanges with N/S and E/W axis routes Athens tram Athens metro extensions, including new link to new airport Thessaloniki tram How is the Thessalonki metro coming on these days? Major renewals of metre gauge network in Pelopponnese and isolated network near Messolonghi Haven't they shut the whole lot? ~50% stock renewal Opening of new Greece/Turkey passenger service But no international links today? Even Ireland has one rail link to the evil imperialistic neighbour... New high speed (as much as the geography will allow) route Athens-Patras under construction But of course OSE was haemorraging cash... partly because fares have historically be heavily state subsidised (the train being a social service the way that British rural buses are, Greek buses being semi-commercial operations). So the short term cost slashing has been to close the entire metre gauge network (including the bit near Messolonghi that never saw a train) Quite. They have at least run trains on the Midleton or Limerick-Galway lines. leaving new trains and track to the mercy of metal thieves. Severe service cuts including all international trains, a number of standard gauge routes closed. Ireland has lost Waterford - Rosslare, which is obviously sad but it was pretty hopeless. After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it opened). I'm not sure I'd call that an achievement :-) -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Modernization of OSE
On 19/10/11 18:51, Bruce wrote:
So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or nothing has been achieved. Amongst the most notorious of which must be the "flood protection" schemes of the 90s on which a huge amount was spent but which when put to the test proved woefully inadequate. Ian |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 19/10/2011 14:44, Theo Markettos wrote:
After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it opened). THeo One common theme on these projects was a horrible mismanagement. As far as I know, NONE of the projects managed by ERGOSE (the project management part of OSE group) was delivered on time and inside the allocated budget. The run up to Athens Olympics in 2004 was a once-in-a-lifetime chance to rebuild the Greek rail network - and they blew it. Lots of delays, legal wrangles, etc. conspired so that when the Olympic games passed (and the funding suddently stopped), nearly nothing has finished beyond Athens Metro two new lines (even these, in the rush to reach Athens airport, skipped two stations that had to be built later, closing again the line for nearly a year). One major problem is that the legal system is so hopelessly plugged and slow (at the moment, there are nearly half a million cases to be resolved at the courts), and even after a project starts anybody can stall it using legal means (adding to delays and extra costs). Add to that that the managers had opened too many projects in parallel instead of focusing in the critical Athens-Thessaloniki mainline, and you start getting the idea (I hope) N.F. |
Modernization of OSE
On 19/10/2011 20:35, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 19/10/11 18:51, Bruce wrote: So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or nothing has been achieved. Amongst the most notorious of which must be the "flood protection" schemes of the 90s on which a huge amount was spent but which when put to the test proved woefully inadequate. The best flood protection is to stop building on the flood plains. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:03:59 +0100, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 17/10/11 21:22, Bruce wrote: None of it, I expect. But a significant proportion of the cost was probably paid by the taxpayers of EU countries. Here he goes again. It seems that Mr Polson is funding Ireland as well as Scotland. Well, we saw him first. He's funding Scotland. I think he was just providing Ireland with economic advice. -- Speaking only for myself |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
In article , Andy Breen wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:03:59 +0100, The Real Doctor wrote: On 17/10/11 21:22, Bruce wrote: None of it, I expect. But a significant proportion of the cost was probably paid by the taxpayers of EU countries. Here he goes again. It seems that Mr Polson is funding Ireland as well as Scotland. Well, we saw him first. He's funding Scotland. I think he was just providing Ireland with economic advice. Characteristically, along the lines of "If I were you I wouldn't start from here" ... Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message ... On 17/10/2011 19:38, Nick Leverton wrote: In articlesrWdnbHMmZVSwAHTnZ2dnUVZ8sCdnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk, Arthur wrote: On 17/10/2011 11:33, Bruce wrote: wrote: Thursday 20th October 2011 “Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? Did Ireland pay for it? Though the alternative to serious modernisation was probably some kind of O'Serpell. What they need is some kind of generous O'Polson ... While MU-isation, commuter services, Luas and similar things probably made sense - viewed in terms of "modern European country" rather than "place to go on holiday trainspotting" - having done the Limerick to Galway line last year I had to wonder if it was really a sensible use of money. And what's more it was easily predictable. I did the line when it only when from Limerick to Ennis and there was me and about three others using it tim |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On 21/10/2011 19:21, tim.... wrote:
"Arthur wrote in message ... While MU-isation, commuter services, Luas and similar things probably made sense - viewed in terms of "modern European country" rather than "place to go on holiday trainspotting" - having done the Limerick to Galway line last year I had to wonder if it was really a sensible use of money. And what's more it was easily predictable. I did the line when it only when from Limerick to Ennis and there was me and about three others using it I suspect two were me and my mate from school! The guard made some comments about people just going for the ride. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
"Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011" Talk.
On Oct 17, 5:54*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 17/10/2011 19:38, Nick Leverton wrote: In articlesrWdnbHMmZVSwAHTnZ2dnUVZ8sCdn...@brightvie w.co.uk, Arthur *wrote: On 17/10/2011 11:33, Bruce wrote: * wrote: Thursday 20th October 2011 *“Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 - 2011” Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco- hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and upgrading of stations and passenger facilities. And the Irish wonder why their economy is bankrupt? Did Ireland pay for it? Though the alternative to serious modernisation was probably some kind of O'Serpell. What they need is some kind of generous O'Polson ... While MU-isation, commuter services, Luas and similar things probably made sense - viewed in terms of "modern European country" rather than "place to go on holiday trainspotting" - having done the Limerick to Galway line last year I had to wonder if it was really a sensible use of money. Anyone know how it is performing - does it perhaps have commuter traffic which I would have seen over Easter? And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all. How has, say, Greece got on in the same period? -- Arthur Figgis * * * * * * * * Surrey, UK Yes, they have restored some lines. Yet, they disconnected the line to Rosslare from Waterford!! If you wanted to reach Rosslare from Cork, then you have a very circuitous route. Any word on restoring the line from Sligo to Galway? I took some pictures at the different lines on a trip to Eire in July. I also have photos of Whitehead Steam. Not all of my pictures are online. http://n1ey.com/Railroad/nfpicturepro/index.php?cat=6 I do think that they are smart in increasing the frequency. This actually improves asset utilization and makes network "effect" possible. Who would take a journey in the old days if it you need to take two trains? You would only dare to take the train to Dublin in my guess. My worry is that they seem insistent on expanding Luas instead of improving speed on the DART and building out new DART lines. They seem only willing to build new right of way for LRV. Bill |
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