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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
My GF gets the FCC every day, and it seems that the service is even more shocking this week then usual (somehow), marred with constant techincal failures and delays.
I wonder if they have moved all the newer style carriages and are pooling them in anticipation for the new 13-car trains they are putting into operation in December- meaning that the trains left in service are all the 'broken parts' of all the old trains?? |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 26, 7:48*am, wrote:
Which line? There are no 13 car trains on FCC nor any plans for them. Are there any plans for 13 car trains *anywhere* on the network? -- Roy |
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 26, 4:35*pm, BumYoghurt wrote: Which line? There are no 13 car trains on FCC nor any plans for them.- Are there any plans for 13 car trains *anywhere* on the network? Brighton to Bedford? Conventional dozen, not bakers. |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
wrote in message ... In article , (Roy Stilling) wrote: On Oct 26, 7:48 am, wrote: Which line? There are no 13 car trains on FCC nor any plans for them. Are there any plans for 13 car trains *anywhere* on the network? Could you make them up from combinations of class 377 units? -- Colin Rosenstiel Is it technically feasible 3+3+3+4? |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 26, 6:39*pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote: wrote in message Could you make them up from combinations of class 377 units? Is it technically feasible 3+3+3+4? I guess Southeastern could replace a 3x375/[6|7|8|9] with a 4x375/3, but I never saw it happen. Can Electrostars multiple more than three units together? -- Roy |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 27, 6:54*pm, wrote:
In article , (Roy Stilling) wrote: On Oct 26, 6:39 pm, "Graham Harrison" wrote: wrote in message Could you make them up from combinations of class 377 units? Is it technically feasible 3+3+3+4? I guess Southeastern could replace a 3x375/[6|7|8|9] with a 4x375/3, but I never saw it happen. *Can Electrostars multiple more than three units together? Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? -- Colin Rosenstiel The Thameslink route will be 12-cars long - they've been extending platforms over the last couple of years, and the extensions are largely complete, such as at West Hampstead, Mill Hill etc. Kentish Town and Hendon however is not being extended as far as I can tell. Southeastern have had 12 car platforms for years. c2c are also extending their platforms to 12-cars. Aren't Southern (and FCC) Class 377s all four-cars long? 3 x 4 = 12 :) |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
"Dr. Sunil" wrote in message
news:cf4437ba-41f7-485e-b686-. Aren't Southern (and FCC) Class 377s all four-cars long? 3 x 4 = 12 :) No, Southern have a fair number of 3 car 377s, and they'll be used in the next timetable to allow more 10 car services, 3+3+4. I'm pretty sure the original 13 car question was just a typo though, however the idea that trains were being removed from service now in order to make longer trains later seems to betray a lack of understanding of what is meant by 12 car services... FCC are going to be sub-hired from SN (on weekdays only for 2 years or more) 3 x 4 car units to run as one 12 car in 4+4+4 formation. These will displace two existing 377/5s to run as third cars on a couple of other 8 car trains, in 4+4+4 formation. Organising this is an overnight job - it will have no bearing whatsoever on today's problems. Paul S |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
... FCC are going to be sub-hired from SN (on weekdays only for 2 years or more) Sorry, that bit should have read 'FCC are going to have, sub-hired from SN etc...' Paul |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
wrote in message
... In article , (Roy Stilling) wrote: On Oct 26, 6:39 pm, "Graham Harrison" wrote: wrote in message Could you make them up from combinations of class 377 units? Is it technically feasible 3+3+3+4? I guess Southeastern could replace a 3x375/[6|7|8|9] with a 4x375/3, but I never saw it happen. Can Electrostars multiple more than three units together? Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? -- Colin Rosenstiel Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. -- DAS |
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
"Robin9" wrote in message
... 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? -- Colin Rosenstiel Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. -- DAS In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But they weren't 4 x 3-car, which was the question I was answering. There were mixed 2, 3 and 4 car formations of SR slam-door stock, but I don't know if it was possible to run more than 3 units coupled in service ,,, -- DAS |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 30, 8:07*pm, wrote:
In article , (D A Stocks) wrote: "Robin9" wrote in message ... 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] *Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But they weren't 4 x 3-car, which was the question I was answering. There were mixed 2, 3 and 4 car formations of SR slam-door stock, but I don't know if it was possible to run more than 3 units coupled in service ,,, 3 car SR units had disappeared by the time I was a lad. -- Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There would have been some SR DEMUs well into the 90s, no? Off the top of my head, the 204, 205 and 207s were all three-car. |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 30, 4:05*pm, wrote:
In article , (Robin9) wrote: 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] *Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But how frequent were they? -- Colin Rosenstiel London to Brighton in 4 minutes :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7GXWuTwkF8 |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 28, 9:14*am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Dr. Sunil" wrote in message news:cf4437ba-41f7-485e-b686-. Aren't Southern (and FCC) Class 377s all four-cars long? 3 x 4 = 12 :) No, Southern have a fair number of 3 car 377s, and they'll be used in the next timetable to allow more 10 car services, 3+3+4. I'm pretty sure the original 13 car question was just a typo though, however the idea that trains were being removed from service now in order to make longer trains later seems to betray a lack of understanding of what is meant by 12 car services... FCC are going to be sub-hired from SN (on weekdays only for 2 years or more) 3 x 4 car units to run as one 12 car in 4+4+4 formation. *These will displace two existing 377/5s to run as third cars on a couple of other 8 car trains, in 4+4+4 formation. *Organising this is an overnight job - it will have no bearing whatsoever on today's problems. Paul S Ah, I see, forgot about those. Thanks! |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
In article , (D A Stocks)
wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (D A Stocks) wrote: "Robin9" wrote in message ... 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But they weren't 4 x 3-car, which was the question I was answering. There were mixed 2, 3 and 4 car formations of SR slam-door stock, but I don't know if it was possible to run more than 3 units coupled in service ,,, 3 car SR units had disappeared by the time I was a lad. You're forgetting the 3-COPs. They came *much* later, long after I left London. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 30, 9:17*pm, wrote:
In article , (Dr. Sunil) wrote: On Oct 30, 8:07*pm, wrote: In article , (D A Stocks) wrote: "Robin9" wrote in message ... 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] *Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But they weren't 4 x 3-car, which was the question I was answering. There were mixed 2, 3 and 4 car formations of SR slam-door stock, but I don't know if it was possible to run more than 3 units coupled in service ,,, 3 car SR units had disappeared by the time I was a lad. There would have been some SR DEMUs well into the 90s, no? Off the top of my head, the 204, 205 and 207s were all three-car. And how many of them ran on London-Brighton services? -- Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You just mentioned above "3-car SR units" - you didn't specify which line! |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
In article ,
D A Stocks wrote: "Robin9" wrote in message ... 'D A Stocks[_2_ Wrote: ;123973'] Don't Southern run some 12-car trains as 4 x 3-car? -- Colin Rosenstiel Yes, used to be quite common on Brighton fast services. -- DAS In the days of nationalised British Railways most Brighton fast services were 12 car trains; and they didn't stop at Clapham Junction either. But they weren't 4 x 3-car, which was the question I was answering. There were mixed 2, 3 and 4 car formations of SR slam-door stock, but I don't know if it was possible to run more than 3 units coupled in service ,,, I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. X-post back to uk.r for more informed comment ... Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
"Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. Peter |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ... "Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. Peter 10 car EPB formations formed entirely of two car sets were not unusual in the last few months, especially once the Selhurst units moved to Slade Green sending many of the unrefurbished four car sets for scrap. John |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 12:16*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. *I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. *My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. Peter ISTR a 6x2HAP in the 1983/84 timetable which was an evening rush hour train from Waterloo to Basingstoke/Alton, splitting at Woking, half going to each destination. Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 6:04*pm, Nick wrote:
On Oct 31, 12:16*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms.. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. *I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. *My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. Peter ISTR a 6x2HAP in the 1983/84 timetable which was an evening rush hour train from Waterloo to Basingstoke/Alton, splitting at Woking, half going to each destination. Nick Looking at my 1984 copy of "Southern Region Multiple Unit Trains", published by the SEG, all EMUs were allocated a Traction Motor Index, usually equivalent to the number of traction motors in a unit, and the maximum TMI allowed was 16. So a 16-car formation of any units apart from 4REPs would have been permissible. TMIs that did not correspond to the number of vehicles or for locos etc were (as quoted in the book): 4REP 14 Class 73 8 GLV 2 MLV 2 (this is not quoted but is my belief). |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 7:22*pm, The Gardener wrote:
Looking at my 1984 copy of "Southern Region Multiple Unit Trains", published by the SEG, all EMUs were allocated a Traction Motor Index, usually equivalent to the number of traction motors in a unit, and the maximum TMI allowed was 16. So a 16-car formation of any units apart from 4REPs would have been permissible. TMIs that did not correspond to the number of vehicles or for locos etc were (as quoted in the book): 4REP 14 Class 73 8 GLV 2 MLV 2 (this is not quoted but is my belief). While that is more or less correct data it is not the whole picture. MLV = 2 is correct (68000 would have been 4 had it run for SR, which it did not). One small error too, its called Conductor Rail Index not Traction Motor Index, although for "standard" units it is a count of 1 for every EE507 motor in the train, which happens to work out as equivalent 1 for every car. EE546 motors were the non standard ones - but you've picked those up anyway, under 73s and 4Reps. AFAIR, 74s were 12 but I'd need to check on that. On DC traction, the GEC motors in 319s count the same as EE507s; a 508/313s although 8 motors per 4/3car units are still index 4 because the motors are approx half size/power each. 16 was the maximum index permitted, except where lower limits apply (e.g. Lymington, Seaford), but that only looks at electrical load - there were other coupling restrictions in place which - apart from locations shorter than 12cars - limited all EMU trains to 12cars** except where specifically authorised - the most notable exception, indeed the only exception I can think of, was channel ports boat trains that were allowed to be 14car either 12Cep+2MLV or 12Cep+TLV +MLV. Exceeding index 12 was also only where specifically authorised. Again applies to boat trains, which were 14 or 16 depending if the 12Cep was with MLV+TLV or 2MLV. The only other exception to not exceeding 12 was anything to do with 4Reps and EDLs - 4Rep+de-icer (14+2) was allowed anywhere where Reps normally worked, 2x73 = 16 but there are again limits where this can be done. Weymouth used to not allow 2x73 on electric but it can now (ignoring the recent temporary reimposition of that limit because of grid feeder problems in Dorset). The were 2 reported occasions I can think of when it happened that 4 x 3Cep got mated together, this was not supposed to happen but inevitably did when assorted 4Cep and 3Cep attaching and detcahing portions started out OK but later in the day got out of phase at Ramsgate or Faversham or Ashford. There was a SEG railtour that was a solo 4Rep but because of an m.g. failure ended up in m.u. with a 4Cep which was index 18 - and we did trip at least one sub-station breaker in Kent. It was not unknown for longer trains to run ECS at night - I have heard tales or 16 or 20 or 24EPB being moved between berthing points resolving previous days disruption ready for next days service. But all such moves are done without any other trains around. Returning to coupling limits, when you look at 12EPB it was not possible to couple together any old permutation of EPB stock. BR Standard Mk1 4EPB had buckeye couplers and push-pull plates between the intermediate cars unlike SR 4EPB which had short three link chains and single buffers. AFAIR 12EPB was not permitted if all units were BR EPB: I'm sure it happened, so theres no need for anyone to cite every time it did, I'm just saying it was not supposed to. There are similar coupling limits on modern stock today e.g on central lines you car run 8car 455/456 of 455+455 or 455+456+456 but 456+456+456+456 is not allowed, they are too long for a couple of vital platforms. Likewise on the eastern side where 10car trains operate, 465+465+466 is allowed, but (I think) 465+466+466+466 and 466+466+466+466+466 is not. ** before anyone piles in and point out 373s were longer, the Conductor Rail Index system did not apply to those. CRI apply only to DC motor trains - so up to and including 456 and 319 have indices, from 465/466 onwards do not. -- Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 7:22*pm, The Gardener wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:04*pm, Nick wrote: On Oct 31, 12:16*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. *I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. *My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. Peter ISTR a 6x2HAP in the 1983/84 timetable which was an evening rush hour train from Waterloo to Basingstoke/Alton, splitting at Woking, half going to each destination. Nick Looking at my 1984 copy of "Southern Region Multiple Unit Trains", published by the SEG, all EMUs were allocated a Traction Motor Index, usually equivalent to the number of traction motors in a unit, and the maximum TMI allowed was 16. So a 16-car formation of any units apart from 4REPs would have been permissible. TMIs that did not correspond to the number of vehicles or for locos etc were (as quoted in the book): 4REP 14 Class 73 8 GLV 2 MLV 2 (this is not quoted but is my belief). While that is more or less correct data it is not the whole picture. MLV = 2 is correct (68000 would have been 4 had it run for SR, which it did not). One small error too, its called Conductor Rail Index not Traction Motor Index, although for "standard" units it is a count of 1 for every EE507 motor in the train, which happens to work out as equivalent 1 for every car. EE546 motors were the non standard ones - but you've picked those up anyway, under 73s and 4Reps. AFAIR, 74s were 12 but I'd need to check on that. On DC traction, the GEC motors in 319s count the same as EE507s; a 508/313s although 8 motors per 4/3car units are still index 4 because the motors are approx half size/power each. 16 was the maximum index permitted, except where lower limits apply (e.g. Lymington, Seaford), but that only looks at electrical load - there were other coupling restrictions in place which - apart from locations shorter than 12cars - limited all EMU trains to 12cars** except where specifically authorised - the most notable exception, indeed the only exception I can think of, was channel ports boat trains that were allowed to be 14car either 12Cep+2MLV or 12Cep+TLV +MLV. Exceeding index 12 was also only where specifically authorised. Again applies to boat trains, which were 14 or 16 depending if the 12Cep was with MLV+TLV or 2MLV. The only other exception to not exceeding 12 was anything to do with 4Reps and EDLs - 4Rep+de-icer (14+2) was allowed anywhere where Reps normally worked, 2x73 = 16 but there are again limits where this can be done. Weymouth used to not allow 2x73 on electric but it can now (ignoring the recent temporary reimposition of that limit because of grid feeder problems in Dorset). The were 2 reported occasions I can think of when it happened that 4 x 3Cep got mated together, this was not supposed to happen but inevitably did when assorted 4Cep and 3Cep attaching and detcahing portions started out OK but later in the day got out of phase at Ramsgate or Faversham or Ashford. There was a SEG railtour that was a solo 4Rep but because of an m.g. failure ended up in m.u. with a 4Cep which was index 18 - and we did trip at least one sub-station breaker in Kent. It was not unknown for longer trains to run ECS at night - I have heard tales or 16 or 20 or 24EPB being moved between berthing points resolving previous days disruption ready for next days service. But all such moves are done without any other trains around. Returning to coupling limits, when you look at 12EPB it was not possible to couple together any old permutation of EPB stock. BR Standard Mk1 4EPB had buckeye couplers and push-pull plates between the intermediate cars unlike SR 4EPB which had short three link chains and single buffers. AFAIR 12EPB was not permitted if all units were BR EPB: I'm sure it happened, so theres no need for anyone to cite every time it did, I'm just saying it was not supposed to. There are similar coupling limits on modern stock today e.g on central lines you car run 8car 455/456 of 455+455 or 455+456+456 but 456+456+456+456 is not allowed, they are too long for a couple of vital platforms. Likewise on the eastern side where 10car trains operate, 465+465+466 is allowed, but (I think) 465+466+466+466 and 466+466+466+466+466 is not. ** before anyone piles in and point out 373s were longer, the Conductor Rail Index system did not apply to those. CRI apply only to DC motor trains - so up to and including 456 and 319 have indices, from 465/466 onwards do not. -- Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 8:47*pm, D7666 wrote:
. AFAIR 12EPB was not permitted if all units were BR EPB: Correction Thats supposed to say AFAIR **10**EPB was not permitted on SED suburban diagrams if all units were BR EPB. -- Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
wrote in message ... In article , (John C) wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message ... "Nick Leverton" wrote I don't remember there being any restriction on that in control terms. Up to about 1969/70, MLV+MLV+Cep+Bep+Cep was common on boat trains - effectively five units. I think I recall workings later on such as 8Hap - four units. My early notebooks unfortunately didn't include train formations. I've got a note that I travelled on a 5 unit train, 0910 Charing Cross to Folkestone, in 1971 orv 1972, 5x2HAP from Charing Cross, rear 4 detached at Tonbridge. I also have a note of a 4-unit train in 1971, 0940 Victoria to Ramsgate formed 2HAP, 2HAP, 4BEP, 4CEP, rear 4 detached at Faversham for Dover. 10 car EPB formations formed entirely of two car sets were not unusual in the last few months, especially once the Selhurst units moved to Slade Green sending many of the unrefurbished four car sets for scrap. But these were from another era of much simpler multiple unit control systems. What about modern units with computers? -- Colin Rosenstiel There was something about Group E and Group D stock and I can't find it in my files. :( |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
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FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 8:47*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Oct 31, 7:22*pm, The Gardener wrote: Looking at my 1984 copy of "Southern Region Multiple Unit Trains", published by the SEG, all EMUs were allocated a Traction Motor Index, usually equivalent to the number of traction motors in a unit, and the maximum TMI allowed was 16. So a 16-car formation of any units apart from 4REPs would have been permissible. TMIs that did not correspond to the number of vehicles or for locos etc were (as quoted in the book): 4REP 14 Class 73 8 GLV 2 MLV 2 (this is not quoted but is my belief). While that is more or less correct data it is not the whole picture. MLV = 2 is correct (68000 would have been 4 had it run for SR, which it did not). One small error too, its called Conductor Rail Index not Traction Motor Index, although for "standard" units it is a count of 1 for every EE507 motor in the train, which happens to work out as equivalent 1 for every car. EE546 motors were the non standard ones - but you've picked those up anyway, under 73s and 4Reps. AFAIR, 74s were 12 but I'd need to check on that. On DC traction, the GEC motors in 319s count the same as EE507s; a 508/313s although 8 motors per 4/3car units are still index 4 because the motors are approx half size/power each. 16 was the maximum index permitted, except where lower limits apply (e.g. Lymington, Seaford), but that only looks at electrical load - there were other coupling restrictions in place which - apart from locations shorter than 12cars - limited all EMU trains to 12cars** except where specifically authorised - the most notable exception, indeed the only exception I can think of, was channel ports boat trains that were allowed to be 14car either 12Cep+2MLV or 12Cep+TLV +MLV. Exceeding index 12 was also only where specifically authorised. Again applies to boat trains, which were 14 or 16 depending if the 12Cep was with MLV+TLV or 2MLV. The only other exception to not exceeding 12 was anything to do with 4Reps and EDLs - 4Rep+de-icer (14+2) was allowed anywhere where Reps normally worked, 2x73 = 16 but there are again limits where this can be done. Weymouth used to not allow 2x73 on electric but it can now (ignoring the recent temporary reimposition of that limit because of grid feeder problems in Dorset). The were 2 reported occasions I can think of when it happened that 4 x 3Cep got mated together, this was not supposed to happen but inevitably did when assorted 4Cep and 3Cep attaching and detcahing portions started out OK but later in the day got out of phase at Ramsgate or Faversham or Ashford. There was a SEG railtour that was a solo 4Rep but because of an m.g. failure ended up in m.u. with a 4Cep which was index 18 - and we did trip at least one sub-station breaker in Kent. It was not unknown for longer trains to run ECS at night - I have heard tales or 16 or 20 or 24EPB being moved between berthing points resolving previous days disruption ready for next days service. But all such moves are done without any other trains around. Returning to coupling limits, when you look at 12EPB it was not possible to couple together any old permutation of EPB stock. BR Standard Mk1 4EPB had buckeye couplers and push-pull plates between the intermediate cars unlike SR 4EPB which had short three link chains and single buffers. AFAIR 12EPB was not permitted if all units were BR EPB: I'm sure it happened, so theres no need for anyone to cite every time it did, I'm just saying it was not supposed to. There are similar coupling limits on modern stock today e.g on central lines you car run 8car 455/456 of 455+455 or 455+456+456 but 456+456+456+456 is not allowed, they are too long for a couple of vital platforms. Likewise on the eastern side where 10car trains operate, 465+465+466 is allowed, but (I think) 465+466+466+466 and 466+466+466+466+466 is not. ** before anyone piles in and point out 373s were longer, the Conductor Rail Index system did not apply to those. CRI apply only to DC motor trains - so up to and including 456 and 319 have indices, from 465/466 onwards do not. -- Nick Thanks for your clarification. You are, of course, right about the term "conductor rail index number" - my fault for mis-reporting it. On the subject of 12EPB, I can only once recall seeing such a formation in service and that was on the first Network Day back in 1986, when at least one additional diagram ran between Victoria and Brighton so formed. Unfortunately, I only have my memory to rely on and don't have any photographic evidence to back this up. |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 9:15*pm, wrote:
But these were from another era of much simpler multiple unit control systems. What about modern units with computers? There it gets more complex. 375/377 configure themselves by current limiting. Its been posted in here a few times before, but in simple terms each traction pack (or motor bogie) takes 750 A but once a train reaches or exceeds 4500(?) A, the train computers divide loads equally across all working packs but not at 750 A. Or something like that. In this way the performance of 4x3 (8 packs) is equalised with 3x4 (9 packs). 450/444 are not as smart, they (I think) are 2000 A each 444 and 1500 A each 450 - but as there are less possible permutations actually don't need to be as complex as 375/377 - in practical terms none of those you;d find working a train exceed 4500 A. Overall there are many other scenarios, 465s, 458s, 460s, 376s, are all different, but the concept is the same, it all works by current limiting and is not necessarily dependent on number of cars or packs or motors in the train. -- Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
On Oct 31, 9:31*pm, The Gardener wrote:
On the subject of 12EPB, I can only once recall seeing such a formation in service and that was on the first Network Day back in 1986, when at least one additional diagram ran between Victoria and Brighton so formed. Unfortunately, I only have my memory to rely on and don't have any photographic evidence to back this up. 12EPB were used on Brighton bike ride reliefs - AFAIR the BR EPB coupling thing did no apply here, as it was outside the SED side suburban areas, BR 12EPB being no different to 12Vep in this respect. -- Nick |
FCC Stitching Customers Up?
In uk.railway D7666 wrote:
375/377 configure themselves by current limiting. Its been posted in here a few times before, but in simple terms each traction pack (or motor bogie) takes 750 A but once a train reaches or exceeds 4500(?) A, the train computers divide loads equally across all working packs but not at 750 A. Or something like that. In this way the performance of 4x3 (8 packs) is equalised with 3x4 (9 packs). There was that 23 car Southeastern 37x that ran as ECS during the snow last winter. Obviously a special case with appropriate overrides, but I wonder what was overridden. Highest current would be on starting I assume, and you can't avoid that. Unless by a reduction in starting torque? Theo |
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